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The Resilient Writers Radio Show: Interview with Melanie Anagnos – Full Episode Transcript

Intro:

Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome to The Resilient Writers Radio Show. I'm your host, Rhonda Douglas. And this is the podcast for writers who want to create and sustain a writing life they love. 

Because let's face it, the writing life has its ups and downs, and we want to not just write, but also to be able to enjoy the process so that we'll spend more time with our butt-in-chair getting those words on the page. 

This podcast is for writers who love books and everything that goes into the making of them. For writers who want to learn and grow in their craft and improve their writing skills. Writers who want to finish their books and get them out into the world so their ideal readers can enjoy them. Writers who want to spend more time in that flow state. 

Writers who want to connect with other writers to celebrate and be in community, in this crazy roller coaster ride, we call the writing life. We are resilient writers. We're writing for the rest of our lives and we're having a good time doing it. So welcome, Writer. I'm so glad you're here. Let's jump right into today's show.

Rhonda:

Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome back to another episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. So today I have with me Melanie Anagnos, and she is a crime novelist who was born in Paterson, New Jersey, which forms the backdrop for her police procedural novels.

Melanie has been a waitress, an attorney, and a stay-at-home mom to her two now adult children. She has an MFA from Sarah Lawrence College, where she was awarded the Gerfine Writing Fellowship. And she also publishes a Substack newsletter, Cherchez la Femme, which draws on media and pop culture from the 1970s. Welcome, Melanie.

Melanie:

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Rhonda:

So you have a novel out called Night Swimming, right? And it's a police procedural set in the 70s. Why the 1970s? It's not a common sort of historical period for novels. What is it about the 1970s that um that draws your attention and makes you want to put a novel there.

Melanie:

You know, I think the 1970s is an interesting decade. I think it gets overshadowed a lot by the 1960s. And I always found it to be an interesting time period in terms of the social changes that were happening, the women's movement. You were just beginning to get gay rights. And a lot of the um the other big movements of the 1960s were still taking hold of civil rights.

So, you you really did have a lot of change and you also had a lot of economic shifting. ah So there was a lot going on. it was an, and I think that, you know, it still resonates today. You know, I think, you know, in our current culture, we're talking, you know, about men's rights now.

And all of that is, you know, something that, you know, derives from what happened to the 1970s and the women's movement and, you know, women's, you know, take, you know, taking over the culture, some people think. So, so yeah, so that's, that was interesting to me. And I also liked the, you know, punk rock and, and, you know, it was just a fun era. So there was a lot that appealed to me.

Rhonda:

Love that. So um what made you, you did an MFA at Sarah Lawrence. So an MFA is sort of traditionally known as, and I, I'm revising a historical mystery myself, but did the MFA. And so it's kind of a literary tradition, right? And then here you are now writing a police procedural. So what is it that you learned through your MFA that you were able to apply to this particular, Night Swimming?

Melanie:

I think what, you know, the biggest takeaway from the MFA is, is, you you learn about storytelling, you learn, you learn to find your voice, which is such a, you know, a writer's workshop trope, it really, you learn to trust yourself as a writer because you're doing things. This book actually, everybody has that first book that they write that they think is gonna be the book that's published and then it ends up going in a drawer or these days a computer file.

And I had one of those books and it was a really quiet novel and I held onto it for a really long time and the main character of Night Swimming, the young police officer was a minor character in that novel. And one day when I finally realized like maybe I should write another novel. Maybe this first novel isn't the one that's meant to be. And at that time I did think that Jamie could be an interesting character.

And I was also very interested in what was going on socially in the 1970s in terms of the women's movement and how men reacted to that. And wouldn't that be interesting to be in this very, very male environment and see how a young man was reacting to the social changes.

So I had these thoughts sort of just aimlessly in my mind. And I had the thought, well, maybe I'll write a police procedural. And then I immediately thought, oh my God, I know nothing about writing a police procedural.

There was always this David Bowie quote that I love about creativity. And, and he said, you know, you go out in the water and then you, push yourself a little further, go where your feet don't, aren't touching, you know, the ground anymore. And, and, and that's when, when things happen.

And I always thought, well, then I'm going to write poetry. I'm going to write speculative fiction, something really outside of my basic comfort zone in writing. And I didn't think it would be writing a police procedural, but that's actually what I ended up doing, is doing something outside of my comfort zone in the sphere of writing. And I really enjoyed it. Yeah.

Rhonda:

I'm so glad you said that. It's interesting. I don't think we talk a lot about this idea that a lot of writers have a novel sitting in the drawer, one that they've just decided, nope, that's not the one. Half a novel, a full novel, whatever. But I'm so glad you said that. I think that's a very, very, very true statement.

So what kind of research did you have to do? You said you didn't know anything about a police procedural. I don't think I would know enough to write something with some real detail and you needed historical detail as well. So tell me a little bit about your research.

Melanie:

I did a lot of research. I read books. I listened to a lot of podcasts, not true crime podcasts, but podcasts where police officers would talk about crimes that they investigated. There's one, was called Small Town Dicks and it was like they would have a new police officer on every week talking about a case. So you kind of just get an idea of, how do police officers think and how do they approach a case.

So I did a lot of that kind of research. I spent a lot of time on Newspapers.com, just going back into the 1970s and just finding out how much, like when did people start using video recorders? It's just things that you wouldn't think, but are remote on their television.

All the things that, you know, like I don't remember that and you want to be, you know, accurate as possible. So you want to be accurate to the time period, but also to the, you know, to the genre, because I do respect the genre a lot. And I wanted to do something that was really as accurate as possible.

Rhonda:

And are you somebody like, had you read a lot in that genre? Was it something, a genre you enjoy reading?

Melanie:

You know, I really didn't. had read some. when Sue Grafton came out, I read a lot of Sue Grafton. But I started reading some more police procedurals as I was doing my research. And I grew up watching Columbo.

So it was always sort of this aesthetic that I was really very comfortable with and enjoyed a lot. I can't say that I was reading a lot of police procedurals as as sort of a main kind of focus before I started writing.

Rhonda:

Yeah, wow. And tell me a little bit about Jamie. How did that character develop? And you said it was a minor character in your previous novel, but how did you develop Jamie into a full-fledged protagonist, a character that can hold the novel on their own?

Melanie:

I think it was just really trying to see the world through his eyes and really, as I said, understanding character because as much as it's a police procedural, I'm always drawn to character-driven novels.

I think a lot of people don't understand that character can't, there are a lot of character-driven police procedurals. And sometimes the stakes in a novel are that, you know, the thriller there was, you know, it that, but sometimes the stakes are the character and really being deeply invested in the character.

And I think police procedurals, because you really do, that is a genre where you're really able to get to know a character. in terms of Jamie, you know, I just really thought, you know, very deeply about him as a character and, and tried to, um you know, put myself in in, into that character as I was writing.

Rhonda:

Any particular challenges that you tripped over as you were deciding to write this new genre out of, you know, having come out of something that wasn't a police procedural and then deciding to write one. Anything in particular that sort of might have tripped you up or taken you a minute or two to figure out?

Melanie:

Well, just the everyday about how a police, know, how the precinct is structured. But one of the things that really I thought a lot about was how the women were portrayed in the novel because in the 70s you had, you there wasn't, you know, the word we would use is agency. And you really didn't have that sort of, you know, a lot of women, you know, didn't have the agency that we're comfortable with now, you know. And I've read a lot of historical pieces where, you know, women are depicted with more agency than I think would have been realistic at the time.

So that was hard because you want a modern day reader to relate to a character, but you also wanna be true to what was going on at that time. So I think that was a balance that I didn't expect to grapple with as much as I did.

Rhonda:

Yeah, I love that. That's really, that's quite interesting, especially writing anything historical, you want to be true to the time but you're also, you you want a story that's going to compel people. Yeah, absolutely. So um your book was reviewed by The New York Times Book Review. That's very exciting.

Melanie:

That was really, it was very validating for me.

Rhonda:

Yeah, I'll bet. Wow, that's amazing. So um I would love to hear a little bit more about the...the location.

Melanie:

So it's set in 1970s Paterson. Paterson is where you live, at least part of the year. And so how did you get to the point where Paterson is like, um well, pretty much a character, I would say, in the novel?

Melanie:

For me, it just was so natural that that was where it was going to take place. And you look back afterwards and think about those choices. And what I really liked about Paterson was that it was a small city. So you can do the of gritty crime novel. But it wasn't as, I think that Los Angeles and New York are always sort of portrayed as these very, very, very, uh you know, where people get lost in the city, you know, they're very, very off putting.

And in Paterson, it was still a small town. It was gritty, but it wasn't this place where people were just lost and, you know, just lost souls, ah which again, is, I think, the portrayal, particularly in crime novels that you see in the larger cities. So Paterson really served that purpose.

Rhonda:

I love that. I think I think readers love to read a novel where where the town itself feels like, you know, the story couldn't be said anywhere else because the town is so so richly um evoked. So I think that's great. Are you thinking that um that you've got a series here?

Melanie:

I didn't think of that when I first started writing the novel, because I didn't really, I'd never written a police procedural, but I do feel that, yes, there's definitely more stories there. um And that's one of the things about police procedurals is when you're reading them, can relate to the characters and really go back to them. And as a writer, that's really, you don't have that opportunity so often.

Rhonda:

That's so true, yeah. And what is it about Jamie's character in particular that makes it feel like, what do you think it is about Jamie's character that will make a reader think, oh, I would love to read another one, oh another book with this character at the heart of it?

Melanie:

Well, I think that for the feedback that I've had on him as a character is that he's somebody who is a decent person, but he's certainly, he's not a perfect person.And, you know, and I think that is something that a lot of people would relate to and want to see as, you know, for lack of a better word, as their hero in a novel.

Rhonda:

Right. Yeah. That sort of, that slight weakness that makes someone vulnerable and real. Yeah.

Melanie:

But the movement to, you know, the motivation to want to do the right thing.

Rhonda:

Talk to me a little bit about, what it's like to write a novel that has all of this, you know, incredible detective work in it for police procedurals, you know, this is a lot of detail and none of it is digital. Like nobody can go Google anything, you know, like nobody can just uh check something on a cell phone. What are the, what are the challenges of writing uh a uh police procedural where, you just yeah, where it's all history, it's all paper, it's...  

Melanie:

As the detective who's solving the crime, I mean, you know, it's really interesting because you're really putting together this puzzle. And what was really important to me was to have a crime that anybody could read about in the paper. But yet it was interesting enough that that a reader is going to turn a page.

So, you know, you're trying to find a crime that's interesting. And how is it going to be solved in a way that's realistic? Because how much evidence is there? I'm not giving away too much in the novel, because in the first chapter, it's a homicide. And there's no cameras. There's no witnesses. How does that get solved?

And so yeah, mean, it's the tiny pieces of evidence that are collected and make that journey interesting. But also for me as a writer, putting together the crime and putting together the puzzle of how it would be solved um was a lot of fun.

Rhonda:

Did you start with that? Was that pretty early in the process, figuring out the puzzle?

Melanie:

No. No, I started. I knew the beginning and I knew the end. And I didn't know how I was going to get to the end. And oh that was a lot of work.

Rhonda:

Yeah, so are you a pantser or a plotter or somewhere?

Melanie:

I'm kind of in the middle. I think, you know, I always know the beginning and I know the end. And then as I do my first draft, then I start putting together like, I think the more you write a novel, the more you read, you really have that sense of the art within the story you know, going back to what did I learn at my MFA, which is, you know, the three acts structure and how does, I think that's really hard to just put into a novel.

I think you have to just sort of write it and then get a sense for how those acts are playing out on the page. ah But that's what I'm innately trying to do.

Rhonda:

That's an important point though, isn't it? Because if you read a lot, you really do have a deep understanding of structure even more than you realize quite often.

Melanie:

I think so. think that, you know, like we talked about, you know, reading as a writer. And then I think that is really important because sometimes I'll just read a book that I don't particularly like, but I'm really interested in how it was structured.

Rhonda:

Yeah, love that. um from here, where do you go from here? So you've started something that you think has maybe serious potential? So are we, know, is the hope to sort of just keep turning out the next one and the next one and hoping that, you know, as you've experienced so far that readers really connect with Jamie and want to see more.

Melanie:

I I think that's really the goal. mean, I think that's really the balance that you that I achieved as a writer so far is to put something out there that was received the way I wanted it to be received. Where readers would understand the character, enjoy the story and um just the goal is to do that again and do it as well the second time.

Rhonda:

Right. Can I ask about your revision process? I think that one of the things I find is. We talk a lot about the draft and we think a little bit about editing, but that part in the middle where you've got a draft and you're looking at it you're going, oh dear, um you can kind of see all the ways it needs to be improved. But how did you approach revision?

Rhonda:

I think somebody had said to me or asked me recently while having written a book once, is it easier to write the second one? And it's really not, but the only thing that you know is like when you see that like first draft and you really have to roll up your you know you can do it because you've done it once before.

So I do a first draft and then I just keep going over it um until I feel like there's enough structure there. And then I will continue to revise in pieces for different things on ah a sentence level. I'll do like one or two passes where I'm just like revising just to clean up the language and make better paragraphs.

And then I'm revising in terms of the story, know, because I always take notes and I always have another thought. So then I'll just go through and it's, you know, when I say structural, it's structural to the story, you know. So I do a number of revisions for different things.

Rhonda:

What was your publishing journey like?

Melanie:

You know, I worked with a small press and, you know, I think, you know, people will say, you like, know, like, is that good? it, you know, is it not? And I think that, you know, it is so true. You get different things out of working with the traditional, you know, big five or small press.

And, you know, I did have a lot of creative freedom, um which was really important to me. And again, it's one of those things you don't really know that is important to you until you actually have it. So I was really fortunate to have that creative freedom.

Rhonda:

Yeah. And small, the truth is, like, there are so many small presses, many of them specialize, and they make great books, like the actual object of the book. And they do a good job of, you know, getting getting the word out about the book, too, usually.

Melanie:

I I think there's so many options for for for writers. Now I'm on Substack a lot. So I read a lot about you know, different authors and different, you know, journeys that they've had, you know, authors who, who had, you know, very great experiences, um you know, with a traditional press who are now doing self publishing for a variety of reasons.

So, you know, I do think it's, know, there's still standards for a book, as you said, you know, like they're small presses, but you're still putting out a good product. And I think that's where it gets lost is that you can put out something that hasn't been edited, that doesn't have a great cover. You know, there's a lot of options. As long as you have your eye on what is important and you know, you know that that is certainly achievable.

Rhonda:

Yeah. Melanie, how did being an attorney in your past inform this story? Did it at all or was it helpful?

Melanie:

I think in two ways. One, um I never practiced criminal law, but I understood enough about the law to want to be accurate. And also as a writer, mean, legal briefs are usually pretty dry. But I did understand the editing process from having done that for a long time.

Rhonda:

Right. Being painstaking in how you're getting your point across. Yeah.

Melanie:

Yes.

Rhonda:

Yeah. And so um a little bit about I'm just I want to go back to em what you said about the women's movement and how men, you know, were responding to it in the 1970s. Can you say a little without like getting into any spoilers, can you say a little bit about how that em that informs the storyline of the novel?

Melanie:

I think you I think the question that I had when I was writing is what did it mean to be a stand up guy? You know, how did that change? And you know, especially in this very male environment, you know.

Rhonda:

A very male at that time, the 1970’s.

Melanie:

Very male, very male environment. And, you know, you know, because I think the portrayal of men reacting to the women's movement were very these two extremes, you you had misogynists who were pushing back. And then you also had, oh I think the words, sensitive new age guy where you had this exaggerated version of a man who was accepting everything about the women's movement.

It was just really empathetic like I think somewhere in between is men who had a level of decency who were just trying to understand what was going on, which is women were saying, society is not working for us anymore and we need to change some things they had never seen it that way, because why would they?

But if you're decent enough person, you're going to listen. I think that interest, especially because there's so much pushback now. There's so much discussion about men who don't have rights, who are being overlooked by society. So to me, I look you know, I look at the, you know, the, current, you know, discussion and I'm looking back to the seventies and saying, well, how did this start?

Rhonda:

Right. Yeah. I love that exploration. That's so fun. So do you ever think that you might go back to writing literary work again? Like, do you miss it? Do you think, oh, I might do some speculative short stories or some poetry as well? oh

Melanie:

You know, I think that I'm really happy with I'm writing now. And, you know, I write on my Substack, is, um you know, which is essay, and that's different. And that's very satisfying to me. So I think I do have that outlet.

But, you know, I think genre can be really very satisfying. And, you know, I still have the same demands of myself. I mean, it has to be well written and it has to I have to assume that my readers are bright people who expect, you know, well, well-crafted sentences.

Rhonda:

I love it. said that. Yeah, absolutely. There's something about just assuming that the reader is, as you say, like a bright person who wants, who wants to read a good book. Yeah, absolutely.

Melanie:

And I believe storytelling is really important. And I think this, you know, to me, that's something you when you read, you just understand how, wonderful storytelling is.

Rhonda:

Yeah, that's so true. Well, um I'm going to put the link to, the book, but also the book to your Substack in the show notes. So people can check that out. What made you decide to, start a Substack newsletter?

Melanie:

That is so, it's a long story. So I'll shorten it. you know, I had, when I was doing my research, I had come up with a, a topic, which was about Playboy in the 1970s. That was very interesting to me and how the women's movement was, was reacting to two, two issues of Playboy in the 1970s.

One was the anniversary issue and the other was the first Ivy League issue and they were only protesting the Ivy League issue. And that sort of said something to me about the women's movement in class.

And I was very interested in, and I wanted to write about it. And I realized at that time that, um you know, it was just too long of an essay to ever get into a magazine. And magazines were really, you know, I don't want to say collapsing, but it certainly the magazine market was shifting.

And so I was working with an editor and she had said to me, should do a Substack. And I said, well, who's going to read it? You know, like my family, like I, you know, I'm not on any social media, but I really felt very, very strongly about the essay and I wanted to get it out and I researched it and I was really very proud of it. And, know, I have a following on Substack and I just found other topics that I like writing about. So it was, it was a surprise to me.

Rhonda:

And so it came out of your research.

Melanie:

It came out of my research.

Rhonda:

Love that. How great is that? Yeah. To have an outlet for thinking about the research beyond the novel, which I think for so many of us, you know, when we start doing the research, get, we're fascinated. We just, love it. So to have an outlet is for it. It's, really great.

Melanie:

Yeah. I call it, you know, outtakes.

Rhonda:

Yeah. Love it. Great. Cherchez la femme. Okay, Melanie, thank you so much for being with me today. This has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much.

Melanie:

Well, thank you again. Thank you so much for inviting me on.

Outro:

Thanks so much for hanging out with me today and for listening all the way to the end. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. While you're here, I would really appreciate it if you'd consider leaving a rating and review of the show. You can do that in whatever app you're using to listen to the show right now, and it just takes a few minutes. 

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