Links Mentioned in This Episode:

Infographic Guide to Standout Plots  (Guide)

Lori Puma’s Website

Lori’s Instagram

The Resilient Writers Radio Show: Interview with Lori Puma – Full Episode Transcript

Intro:

Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome to The Resilient Writers Radio Show. I'm your host, Rhonda Douglas. And this is the podcast for writers who want to create and sustain a writing life they love. 

Because let's face it, the writing life has its ups and downs, and we want to not just write, but also to be able to enjoy the process so that we'll spend more time with our butt-in-chair getting those words on the page. 

This podcast is for writers who love books and everything that goes into the making of them. For writers who want to learn and grow in their craft and improve their writing skills. Writers who want to finish their books and get them out into the world so their ideal readers can enjoy them. Writers who want to spend more time in that flow state. 

Writers who want to connect with other writers to celebrate and be in community, in this crazy roller coaster ride, we call the writing life. We are resilient writers. We're writing for the rest of our lives and we're having a good time doing it. So welcome, Writer. I'm so glad you're here. Let's jump right into today's show.

Rhonda:

Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome back to another episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. And I'm here today with Lori Puma. Lori is a book coach and editor. I think she has a PhD in epidemiology, though, also. So yeah, she knows some things.

But today, what we're going to do is we're going to talk about some infographics that Lori has thought through to help us think about basically book structure in different genres. So we're gonna talk action, we're gonna talk investigation, we're gonna talk romance.

So welcome, Lori, so glad you're here.

Lori:

Thank you, Rhonda. I'm so excited to be here and to talk about infographics.

Rhonda:

Yeah, fun. So how did this come about? Like, were you like, you know what we need? We need a visual representation of how books work.

Lori:

Yeah, so it was a very long and twisted journey, you might guess, based on the fact that I have a PhD in the subject, you know, that looks at health science. And now I edit novels that there might have been some twisty roads in between.

Yeah, so when I first started working with clients, I started out as a Story Grid editor. Like,you know, I was really gung-ho about that system and I was like, okay, I have everything I need to answer all of my clients' questions and I just didn't have the answers to their questions.

Rhonda

I'm going to say, I mean, I know the Story Grid system. I've studied the Story Grid system. It's not my fave. But I think it really works for people who like to know that, you know what, there's like a formula.

Lori:

Well, so I still love the Story Grid system. And I also want to acknowledge that it was not created for most of us. It was created to help um writers who had already gotten an agent, who had already gotten a traditional publishing deal.

And Shawn Coyne was trying to launch those um authors into the best selling kind of, make more money for the publisher. And so for that, it's still great.

But then there's everybody else. And I am more interested in everybody else. And I think so are you. We want to help people get to that level where the Story Grid might someday help them. I kind of went on a quest to because I was a scientist, I was like, surely someone else has figured this out.

So I read. I've now read over a thousand novels and uh several dozen, I think it's like 70 craft books. I found that actually, no, there are some things that aren't as popular that are really great. And then there are a lot of things that, you know, everybody else, you know, kind of struggles with that just really aren't covered in the craft books.

And so the infographics are one of my ways to kind of fill in that oh because a lot of what is missing is the managing things simultaneously and how to prioritize what's important. Right.

Rhonda:

OK. Well, let's take a look at the first one because you and I are like infographics, infographics, and people like what are they talking about? So let me share my screen, share the first one, and we'll have you walk us through it.

Lori:

So yes. Yeah. And if I don't know if people are still listening, I also sometimes call them story diagrams.

Rhonda:

OK. So. Walk us through um this first one, which is for the story that has an action rhythm. Yeah. And so let me say that I created this one to work for any story where there is a hero who needs to defeat a villain and save a victim. So that means pure action hero plots. It  means crime thrillers. means, you know, fantasy quests or, you know, the world is going to be destroyed soon. All of those kinds of stories, they are all covered by this.

And so there are eight panels here. And the first one is that the hero sees the victims and may be one. And the last one is the climax, the hero is going to have some kind of one-on-one confrontation with the villain. Those two panels are pretty much never going to move um in this kind of a story.

But the other ones in the middle are going to be a little more malleable. And you can think of each panel as uh a sequence in your novel. So it's not a single scene. It's like a set of scenes that all lead up to something larger.

Rhonda:

OK. Talk us through the legend down at the bottom here, because that'll help us understand what's going on.

Lori:

Yes. So we've got our primary hero, your protagonist. We've got the main villain or the chief antagonist. um We've got the victim who is someone who is harmed by what the villains plan, by some aspect of the villains plan.

And then the next four things are a set of thermometers. So these represent the level of danger in your story. So the first one is the physical dangers so like the direct threats, you know, somebody says they're gonna kill you, then they pull a knife, you know that and so like, every story is gonna have…

Rhonda:

And danger for him to the victim to…

Lori:

Danger to the hero and sometimes to their allies, because the next one is the social and reputational danger. So um that's for things like, you know, if your hero is betrayed by someone or somebody that was going to help them, um their job is at risk, or they might get a demotion or something like that. Those are the social dangers.

And then the third one is environmental hazards. that's like fires, floods, storms, that kind of stuff. And then the last one is institutional or legal. like, if your character is arrested, they, you know, if their passport is revoked, or um anything that takes like an institution that is like restricting their movement or, you know, causing other kinds of dangers.

And I just want to say for all the fantasy and science fiction folks, you may have additional thermometers. I just did these because they're pretty common across all kinds of stories but the number of ones that are relevant to your story can vary. This was just trying to get a representative sample.

Rhonda:

So the type of threat and the intensity is the level of the different thermometers.

Lori:

Yeah, so the type of thread is which of these four, and then the intensity is like, how high is the color going up the thermometer?

Rhonda:

OK, great.

Lori:

Yes.

Rhonda:

And then the time pressure.

Lori:

The time pressure. Yeah, so you'll see um it starts in, um really in panel three, it starts with 11 days. And this, again, was representative. Your story may have totally different. And it doesn't, we don't have the time pressure in panel one and we have pay later in uh panel two, because usually it early in the story, it's not clear what the time limit is gonna be. And often the your hero is gonna do stuff early in the story that makes their situation worse and creates additional time pressure.

Rhonda:

Okay. And then we have health resources and allies. I love this. OK, this is starting to feel like a video game now.

Lori:

That is exactly the analogy that I drew it from was like, was like, uh how do I do this as like a video game so that, you know, and this again is like a representative sample of what you might have because, well, frequently, almost always you're going to have a health bar for like how much health or injury does your hero have?

Then resources, supplies, foods, ammunition, um anything can go into that. That's pretty much a catch-all. And then allies is who's on their side? Who's providing them with money, with access, with information? um Who's helping them lug heavy rocks? Any of those kinds of things.

Rhonda:

OK. Great. All right. So walk us through these eight panels.

Lori:

Yeah. So action stories always start with someone being harmed and that person is harmed because of the villain's plans and they were targeted maybe specifically because of who they are, but definitely for a specific reason.

So like because they were in a specific location or they meet certain criteria like Katniss and Prim are subject to the reaping in The Hunger Games because of their age. So that's what we mean by criteria.

And that is always how it starts because that helps set up how powerful your villain is that they can do this thing where they harm other peoples. Like the opening of Killing Floor, the first Jack Reacher novel, Jack Reacher is arrested which wrongfully for murder, which it really establishes, oh my gosh, the villain in this story is someone that can wrongfully arrest somebody who just arrived in town for murder. That is a lot of power.

Rhonda:

OK.

Lori:

Yes, and so then in panel two, here not every hero is going to go through this panel, but this is where some heroes focus on short term priorities instead of dealing with the villain. So like in Killing Floor, the Reacher novel, he just wants to get released and leave town. He does not care about the problems of some small town in Georgia.

So uh the villain can do whatever they want during this time because the hero isn't, isn't openly doing anything to support them. They've got another kind of goal. So that's what the target kind of symbolizes.

Rhonda:

And in the meantime, your hero has good health, relatively good resources, and has some allies working with him.

Lori:

Yes. And these are em not like prescriptive. This is more of a representative. But usually at this point in the story, they don't have a broken arm or they're not completely exhausted yet. They usually have a lot of stuff available to them and often people as well.

Rhonda:

Okay. And then we're into complications in the three. And this looks like our hero is like pow, pow, pow. Yes. Like going on there with those bam.

Lori:

Yeah. And so this is one where, you know, it can sometimes blend with Panel 2, but basically this is where everything is getting worse, even though your hero might not realize it or they might not be able to do much about it.

So like in The Hunger Games, Katniss impulsively shoots an arrow through a pig's mouth on the Gamemakers' table, which earns her the highest pregame rating ever for the whole games, which puts a target on her back, not just from the other tributes. It makes the other Gamemakers take notice of her and make sure that she, you know, they are not going to let her get away with stuff.

Rhonda:

So that's why the social thermometer is up a little bit here.

Lori:

Exactly. Yes. Cause this is often where, you know, there are unexpected consequences to these, you know, this is the problems, there's new obstacles, there's stuff that your hero was like, I did not, I didn't intend that to happen and now I to deal with it.

Rhonda:

And um it looks like we're racking up a body count. see two victims here now.

Lori:

Yeah. And again, it kind of varies, like, especially in The Hunger Games, you know, we really don't have that until we get to the games. But in something like Killing Floor, the Jack Reacher novel, this is where Reacher discovers who the murder victim was and it is actually his brother, which was like, now he is like, wait a minute, I was in the, you know, he was in prison with the guy who knew everything that was going on over the weekend and he didn't ask any questions because he thought that guy's problems weren't his problems. And so, you know, then when he gets out, the dude's gone.

Rhonda:

Okay, so I love this. So now we're also getting a countdown. It's like the timing, the deadline has become clear.

Lori:

Yeah and in Killing Floor, it's actually very clear because what he does get from Paul Hubble is that the conspiracy has like, I can't remember if it's 10 days or seven days, but it's a certain number of days. By this day, everything will be okay, but before that day. So, and that's often something that gets established um around this time.

Rhonda:

And then we have, Hero Commits to Plan A, and I can see our thermometers for the physical and the social are starting to rise. What's going on here?

Lori:

Yeah, so if this is where, you know, there's more physical threats. So when Reacher gets out of jail and tries to track down um Paul Hubble for answers, there's another murder victim and he can't find Hubble, so he assumes he's dead.

In that story, there was also an assassination attempt in um the prison. There's a little bit about the conspiracy that gets revealed that makes it clear that there are more people in danger. that's why the physical um is going up and then the reputational.  

That one, well, usually because your hero is often going to have other kinds of allies at that time who might-

Rhonda:

Yeah, I can see the ally bar has gone up as well.

Lori:

Yeah, right? Because this is where your hero's gonna commit to some kind of a plan. And this is something that's going to lead them into direct confrontation with the villain. So in Killing Floor, Reacher decides to investigate his brother's murder, because obviously.

And then in The Hunger Games, Katniss' plan A is to run, hide, and wait for the other tributes to kill each other in the arena. So that is that is not going to be OK with the Gamemakers. Yeah, obviously.

So so that planning, it does not have to be something brilliant. It can be something really ordinary because what plan A does is set you up for the next panel.

Rhonda:

OK, which is Plan A fails.

Lori:

Which is plan A fails. And if you take nothing else away from this podcast, take this away. This is what makes a page turner is how that plan fails, right?

Because in Killing Floor, Reacher's plan A was track down Paul Hubble for answers. That dude is missing and almost certainly dead. So that plan is not viable. And uh the murder that was discovered when he thought it was actually Hubble and his family that were killed was extremely gruesome. you know, um yes.

And like in The Hunger Games, Katniss, she, you know, she ran and hid for like two days and then the wildfire started. Right. And then the fireball started and you know, she gets hit, she gets burned. She cannot go back to the run and hide. The Gamemakers are not going to allow that. She has to confront the tribute, the other tributes directly.

So that's what you want is that you want that direct confrontation. Your hero's goal is now in direct opposition with your villain and what they have to do next is going to be much more dangerous.

Rhonda:

Okay. So now the hero regroups and they commit to the higher risk plan B. And here we have our physical and our social thermometers getting pretty high here at this point.

Lori:

Yeah. So like in this one, in The Hunger Games, Katniss allies with Rue, who she's now in danger... well, everyone is in danger in The Hunger Games, but the careers are going to target Katniss because she is the number one threat to their winning the games. So anybody associated with her is um really at risk.

And this path is much more dangerous and more costly. So that's why the little money bags are there. um But the hero often does have additional resources. know, uh Katniss now has Rue's knowledge. And um that's really valuable.

Rhonda:

Right, so those additional resources help plan B initially look like, oh, this is gonna work.

Lori:

Yeah. Like it's definitely gonna be more difficult, but it's definitely possible.

Rhonda:

Oh, right, and then we're at nope. Sorry now.

Lori:

I think the all is lost, success looks impossible is something that you've probably heard about a hundred thousand times before. For Katniss, it's when Rue dies, for um Reacher, it's when he realizes he's basically the allies that he's been working with have been essentially captured and he is also captured. That looks really difficult.

Rhonda:

So the physical is high, the social is halfway, environmental also is high?

Lori:

Yeah, mean, these can vary based on the story. I was also using The Martian as an example, which we haven't been talking about. So for that one, that one is like the environmental is enormous throughout. But at this point in the story, Mark Watney's crewmates are also involved and they basically mutinied against NASA. So like their jobs are at stake and the military could, there's two people in the crew on the military, they could be court-martialed when they return. So it's those kinds of risks that would increase really any time in the second rows worth of panels.

Rhonda:

And we have low health, low resources, low allies, but more victims.

LORI:

Usually, yes. And exactly where this lands in your story is going to be specific to your details because like specifically with The Martian, you know, you can't have Watney get too sick. Otherwise it's not even possible. But for The Hunger Games, know, like Peeta is super sick when Katniss finds him. But then she and the gifts that they get are able to bring him back to some degree of health.

Rhonda:

And then climax hero battles villain in the action story. That's like, you know, you're looking at your book. You've got maybe 10 pages to go. This is where we are.

Lori:

Yes, yeah, yeah. So this is going to be a one on one confrontation. And it's basically a mini version of everything that we've had before, right? You're going to try to block your hero or make them look possibly blocked like several times. And you're going to force them to improvise and do things that really cut off other avenues of attack for them. So that's why we've got more money bags. And this is when the threats are going to be at their highest level throughout the story.

Rhonda:

Both the physical, the social, environmental, and even the institutional. We're at the final, this is it. This is day zero.

Lori:

Yeah. And one thing that we didn't really talk about throughout is that you'll see that, OK, so here at the end, the villain is clear. But prior to this panel, the villain has been more obscured. It's been behind this pain.

And that's because, you know, like, in The Hunger Games, it's pretty clear. It's not as much of a mystery, but in Killing Floor, what the conspiracy was doing and what they wanted was not that clear, but it is clear by the time you get to panel eight.

It's not even clear who it is or what they want when Reacher is arrested in panel one. So that's very common for that little bit of mystery of like, who is the villain and what do they want? And it takes the whole story to kind of get all of those details.

Rhonda:

Okay, this is great. So this is the action rhythm. We're going to move on now and talk about another one. So I love this. I'm going to pull up the investigation rhythm and share it. This is I'm working on a historical mystery. So I'm looking forward to seeing what's going on here. So walk me through this. Let's start with the legend. What's going on down in the legend?

Lori:

Okay, so if you're writing mystery, you already know about suspects, about victims, and about clues. What I have added is a lens. And what a lens is, is it's a specific way to look at the clues and the suspects and figure out how to make sense of what you have and what you might need to gather.

A lens could be something like a particular motive. The motive might be inheritance money. uh Or a lens could be something like a tactic that the criminal used. if there was a theft and there was an extremely complex lock that only a few people know how to get around, that's a potential lens.

A lens could also be something like a place. The place, the airport terminal where the body was found, or it could be a single clue that is really mysterious that or that connects to a lot of other clues. So like in the in the infographic guide that these these things come from, I have a 17 clue mystery and tire tracks are one lens.

Rhonda:

Okay, great. Yes. Yes, which I didn't. to turn one. Discovery and standard lenses.

Lori:

Yes. So.

Rhonda:

Do you by standard lenses? So discovery is something's going on. Maybe somebody's died.

Lori:

Some kind of crime has been discovered. And standard lenses. So if you're writing a police procedural or something where there's any kind of official peace officer who is leading it, they are going to have a protocol for how to investigate these kinds of things.

They are going to have the standard set of items that they're like, okay, well, who is this victim? Who are they connected to? What kinds of conflicts did they have? you know, all of those kinds of things are going to be very standard. That's not going to vary. If you have an amateur sleuth, you have more freedom.

But it's that's the standard lenses means, you know, if you want to follow whatever procedures are relevant for your particular protagonist.

Rhonda:

Yeah. So my story takes place in 1882 London. So the first thing everybody thinks is, it's a madman. It's a madman. It's not a, you know, yeah.

Lori:

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But I mean, even though they, those officers, I think had some kind of protocol, was it one that we would follow today? Of course not. But. Yes.

Rhonda:

Okay. And then we have the lens narrowing. Talk to me a little bit about this.

Lori:

Yeah. So often in an investigation, know, somebody looks really guilty. Like here, you know, everybody is focusing on the uncle who has, um you know, a history of assault. So the your hero is going to, or I guess I should say sleuth, your sleuth is going to focus on the most promising leads, right?

They're not going to look at all these things that are very long shots. They're going to, at times, just put all of their energy into doing what looks most likely, because that is going to make the best use of their time.

Rhonda:

OK. And then we have a stall where like, uh-oh, no, maybe not.

Lori:

Yes. Yeah, and I should say this is like the action where the first panel and the last panel, the discovery and the solution, they always stay in the same place. And for any kind of mystery, these middle panels, they can move all around. um There's a couple um that pairs that don't work together or they need to be in a specific order. But these can move around, they can be repeated depending on how your investigation unfolds.

Rhonda:

Okay, and then we have a stall, but then we have a stump, plot twist, uh-oh. So the original theory now is not working at all.

Lori:

Exactly, yeah. So stall means that you're just like, you have a couple things that they aren't fitting together, but you don't really have anything new to, you don't have any new direction to go. It's just like, you're kind of hitting a little bit of a dead end. And then stump it's completely breaking down um your theory.

And then I actually have two stumps. So I have stump as panel four and then stump as panel seven. So there's two ways that can happen. One is that you have a clue that twists your plot. I call these the plot twisting clues. That they make your investigator go, oh my gosh, I had everything wrong. But they can also get stumped when, you know, they've got multiple suspects who all look the same. So there's that.

Rhonda:

Okay, so let's go to expand and talk to me about these lines that are dark lines and then dotted lines.

Lori:

Yeah, so sometimes your investigator will be really confident in what the connections are. And sometimes they'll be like, OK, I think this is possible, but I'm not 100 % sure about this. And I should say that this diagram is a really simplified version.

If you truly outlined most mysteries, there would be many, many more things on the page. But I had to limit this so that I could get it all in one page and we could talk about it.

Rhonda:

Yes. Okay. And then we have reset and you have lead suspect becomes the victim.

Lori:

And I actually missed something. So in the first few, so when we focused, we actually closed one lens, which was the love triangle lens. And then in panel four, when we got that plot twisting clue, we closed the family lens. So actually we had no more, we had no more lenses open. So we were just totally at a dead end.

Rhonda:

We don't know.

Lori:

We have nothing else to know. And it's not till we get the next clue that that expands and um creates new lenses for us that we're like, oh, OK, this could come from a different reason. And also one of our suspects from before, the thing that we thought meant A actually means B.

Rhonda:

Right. Right.

Lori:

That's what we want. the thing about plot twisting clues that I found a lot of is one of the reasons that I made this is that it should change your diagram. There should be lenses opening or lenses closing because of those plot twisting clues.

Like if your diagram doesn't change, if all you're doing is changing the lines from you know, one clue to another suspect or switching out one suspect for another, that is not a plot twist.

Rhonda:

Right. Right. The plot twist basically breaks down the lens and possibly opens up, says you have to open up new lenses, new ways of looking at things.

Lori:

Exactly.

Rhonda:

So now we have our poor geologist. Yes. And that takes the lead suspect out of the game. Right. So now things have things have changed again. What are the difference in those little boxes down at the bottom between the orange ones and the yellow ones?

Lori:

Yes, so the orange ones are ones where we know what they mean. The yellow ones are ones where we're like, OK, I don't know how this connects. I don't know how these all fit in yet. So that's. And that's really, really common in any kind of analysis or investigation is like, okay, I know where these puzzle pieces go, but these other pieces.

Rhonda:

Yeah. We don't know. We don't know yet. So and then we have the stump in panel seven, three equally likely suspects, right? So now a new suspect has emerged.

Lori:

Yes, exactly. Yes.

Rhonda:

But we have two lenses, it seems, right? We have. Oh, could be the pilot and something about escape or could be the biz partner, the shipping manager and a smuggling operation.

Lori:

Yes, but we are more certain than those lenses are the are the right things. We just we just can't prove how it all came together yet.

Rhonda:

Yeah. So right. Which one is the actual?

Lori:

Yeah, we don't know who who is the mastermind and who is the helper or who's, you know, innocent and just having a really bad luck.

Rhonda:

Right. Right. And then we have the puzzle solved. It all comes together. The lines are all clear. Yeah. Which, we love.

Lori:

Yes. Yes.

Rhonda:

All right. Let's just look quickly at romance. So, um, this is really interesting. Let's talk about romance. Yes. So we have the primary hero and the love interest.

Lori:

Yes. So our primary hero is yellow heart, blue, um, blue shell. And then our love interest is blue heart, light blue shell. And those shells are sort of their defense mechanisms or coping strategy because they've got some kind of internal flaw where, you know, they've got some kind of misbelief about the world that is, you know, really causing problems in their life and making it so that they can't have this meaningful long term relationship.

Rhonda:

And then we have attraction and adhesion. So we have that initial force and then we have them staying together.

Lori:

Yes. oh attraction is obviously the physical, but also the appreciation for shared interests or uh shared experiences or things like appreciating that other person's personality. And so those are things that pull them together.

And the adhesion is the situation or container that prevents your heroes from leaving and running away when things get difficult. So in the uh example in the infographic guide, it's a reality TV shooting situation where they've signed contracts so they can't leave and they're forced to interact on a daily basis. Um, so, you know.

Rhonda:

Or a contemporary romance that takes place at work and they need the job or yeah.

Lori:

Yes, exactly. There's something that prevents them from leaving. And a lot of times um a way to enhance your story is to strengthen that container. So especially when it, um you know, if it's too weak, if your readers are going to be like, why aren't they just leaving? You need to strengthen, strengthen the adhesion.

Rhonda:

Oh, I love that. That's such a good point. So let's talk about connection deepens and challenges grow. So obviously, we've got our thermometers for physical intimacy, way, way up. Yes, life integration, it seems like, oh, they these guys want to be together.

Lori:

Well that's life integration is about like, how much are there? How much is their day to day life entwined? And like, how much do they rely on each other? That's kind of what I was going for that those signs of emotional intimacy and closeness that are not sexual attraction. They're things that you would have with any person who was a good friend.

Rhonda:

Meeting with parents. Yeah, love that. Okay. And then we have challenges grow, right? This is where, uh-oh, things are not so easy. So we have the no loan, the TV job, the producers here when it comes to the reality TV. And then everything falls apart. Things might not work out. It seems like they're probably not going to be together.

Lori:

Yes, yeah. So usually that's a breakup. But it's 10. So I want to show the challenges grow. So the adhesion is still there. But often all of those all of those challenges cause the adhesion to break down or or the you know, the their stuff that happens here where they're like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe that you did that you know, as soon as I get out of this, I'm out.

So that's what those are building towards, because eventually we need them to come together in a way that does not rely on outside forces. You can nudge them. That's what those little, you know, um nudges are, the people that remind them what they really want. But they have to make that choice themselves.

Rhonda:

And so here we are now, they must choose love. We have the high physical intimacy, high life integration. They're still on two different.

Lori:

Yes, because they've got to take the leap, right? They have to put themselves out there. They have to make themselves vulnerable in order to like that is what all good relationships are based on is that vulnerability. So they've got to cross that chasm and, you know, bear their souls in order to get to their happily ever after.

Rhonda:

I love that. This is great. So, you mentioned a guide. You have a guide that folks can get that walks through this?

Lori:

Yes. So it's the Infographic Guide to Standout Plots and you can get it from my website.

Rhonda:

Okay, great. I'll put the link to that in the show notes and people will be able to go and grab that. And you can find out more about Lori at https://loripuma.com/, right?

Lori:

That's true.

Rhonda:

Okay, so great. Thanks so much for sharing this with me. This has been fascinating. I absolutely love it.

Lori:

Yay. Thanks so much for having me. 

Rhonda:

I'm so glad.

Outro:

Thanks so much for hanging out with me today and for listening all the way to the end. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. While you're here, I would really appreciate it if you'd consider leaving a rating and review of the show. You can do that in whatever app you're using to listen to the show right now, and it just takes a few minutes. 

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