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The Resilient Writers Radio Show: Interview with Rebecca Pickens – Full Episode Transcript

Intro:

Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome to The Resilient Writers Radio Show. I'm your host, Rhonda Douglas. And this is the podcast for writers who want to create and sustain a writing life they love. 

Because let's face it, the writing life has its ups and downs, and we want to not just write, but also to be able to enjoy the process so that we'll spend more time with our butt-in-chair getting those words on the page. 

This podcast is for writers who love books and everything that goes into the making of them. For writers who want to learn and grow in their craft and improve their writing skills. Writers who want to finish their books and get them out into the world so their ideal readers can enjoy them. Writers who want to spend more time in that flow state. 

Writers who want to connect with other writers to celebrate and be in community, in this crazy roller coaster ride, we call the writing life. We are resilient writers. We're writing for the rest of our lives and we're having a good time doing it. So welcome, Writer. I'm so glad you're here. Let's jump right into today's show.

Rhonda:

Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome back to another episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. So today I'm speaking with Rebecca Pickens. Rebecca has over 15 years of experience editing and teaching writing. She is a published author. She works with folks working on literary and contemporary fiction, middle grade and young adult fiction, and nonfiction and memoir.

Her fiction has appeared in various literary journals, and she's been nominated for a PEN/Robert J. Dau Short Story Prize for Emerging Writers and a Pushcart Prize. And she's also an Author Accelerator Certified Book Coach. Welcome, Rebecca.

Rebecca:

Thank you so much, Rhonda. It's great to be here.

Rhonda:

So we were going to talk about uh editing for emotional impact. So you work with a lot of writers working on the all-important debut novel, right?

Rebecca:

Correct.

Rhonda:

What are the biggest mistakes that you see when they send you, you know, either those first pages or the whole manuscript?

Rebecca:

Yeah. So there are one of the wonderful things about being a new writer is that there are so many incredible teachers and tools and techniques that we all enjoy, you know, and keep in mind as we're going through the revision process.

And so oftentimes what I'll receive when I'm doing a developmental edit, for example, or if I'm coaching somebody on their first round of edits, is that they have scrubbed that first page. It's so polished. The words are gorgeous, right? And they're perfect.

And they're starting to get stuck because they have focused so much on that first page that they're tired of their story already, right? And they haven't even finished the first chapter. This has happened in my...to me as well. I think it happens to all of us. And they find themselves becoming kind of tired by the revision process.

And that is often a good indicator that they are, they're sort of suffering from having too much information, too much technique. And so they have looked at that, you know, at their theme, they have looked at their opening hook, they have looked at their narrative arc.

And what they've forgotten is why they fell in love with these characters to begin with and what brought them to the page, you know, why they're even here. And that starts to happen when we become too distanced from the emotional part of our story.

And what's interesting about that is as writers, we love craft naturally, but as readers, we love characters. We love their mistakes. We love their quirks. We love them. And so, I myself, I love literary fiction. I love beautiful sentences, but I've read literary stories that are, know, perfect craft that I've kind of forgotten.

And I've read stories that, you know, aren't doing anything extremely new or novel with in terms of the prose, but boy, they've nailed a character that just won't let go. And we remember that story till the end of time, right? So that's not to say craft doesn't matter but it is to say we can't lose sight of the heart, of the reason that readers come to stories.

And so what I will often find when I'm working with writers is that they are preoccupied with structure. I don't want to say preoccupied, that stuff matters, but it's easy to forget what it's like to be a reader and what readers are looking for. And so it's that heart, it's that emotional connection.

And so I really…we often talk about the developmental edit, right? The structural editing that needs to take place first. And then we talk about um line editing and copy editing. And all of these things are so important, but we can't forget that emotional revision, going back to the page and looking for the heart of our story and for um what it is that makes our characters unforgettable.

Rhonda:

It's so interesting you say that because I noticed that too, where, you know, people come in, they're like, Oh, I'm using Save the Cat! Writes a Novel. I'm using Story Genius. I'm using the hero's journey. I'm using the heroine's journey. I'm using Story Grid. I'm using la la la, right? Like we really love to like grab a good structure and run with it. Right. What do you see as the pitfalls of deciding a structure upfront and then writing?

Rebecca:

That's a great question. I think that depends on the writer completely. um I think that for some people, um having that structure in place takes a lot of pressure away. And so then it's like, okay, now I can really get personal with this character and get to know them and do that fun connection.

Other writers, uh I think that uh worrying so much about all that scaffolding and all that structure up front takes all the fun out of it. And so it's not worth the bother to get to know the characters. They don't even get to that point if they lose the magic along the way.

And so I think, ah you know, we do talk a lot about the pantser and the plotter and the plantser. And that can start to feel like, oh, you know, that again. But I think those are important things to know about ourselves because I think when we, don't think one is better than the other.

And I think when we can just be comfortable with what we are, then I think we know when's the best place to really start to think about that emotionality in our story and to think about how our characters are going to play on the page. And the wonderful thing is it's never too late to go back and insert that kind of emotionality. So, so often we start with it, we lose it, and then we put it back in, you know, at the end.

Rhonda:

Yeah. And let's say you get somebody, just hypothetically, somebody sends a manuscript that feels a little flat, like the characters are hard to connect with them. It's hard to kind of feel the emotion there. What are the kinds of approaches that you would recommend for editing a story and putting that emotion back in?

Rebecca:

Yeah, that's a good question. um So I, it's funny you asked that because I am personally struggling with that with my own novel right now. And I see this a lot in in kind of upmarket and literary fiction, where oftentimes writers are working with a really passive character.

I will use myself as a guinea pig, I'm writing a character her whole, the whole challenge she has is that she's passive, and that she doesn't go out there and get it, right? So the tension, and I think that's kind of an archetypal character. I think we see that in lots of different forms and it can be so compelling to read about if it's done in a way that your reader can uh connect with, right?

So the tension becomes, how do you stay true to this character and present them the way they are and how do you make us care? And I think in instances like that, leaning in heavily to two things. One is subtext. And we'll talk about that in a minute. And then the other is interiority.

And those are two words if anyone who has ever worked with me just starts to roll their eyes when they hear the word interiority, they say, I know what you're going to say. You want more interiority? Yes, I do always. So we'll start there.

I think that and what I mean by interiority is just really simply said it's what your character is thinking about on the inside. It's what they're not showing the world. Right. And I think one of the reasons that interiority is such magic in stories is the same way, is the same reason that when our bestie confides in just us and she tells us something that we know nobody else knows, right. That makes us care more. Like suddenly that is like, oh I, I will hold onto this information. This information is dear to me and I can't wait to see the outcome for you. I'm invested in you.

We feel that way with our characters too that we read because if they're not telling everyone else in the story and only we know, well, we've got a responsibility suddenly to show up for that character and hear them out. And so that kind of interiority can explain passivity or can explain why something seems kind of dull on the surface, but there's all sorts of stuff churning inside of that character.

So I think that's a great way to really to build that up. And then I think subtext is really valuable as well. for example, um let's imagine a character um and she's really angry at her partner. And she said in the first draft, she might say, You never listen to me. I'm devastated. I'm devastated.

And as a reader, what's a devastated feel like? I don't know. I mean, I know what it would feel like for me. I don't know how it feels for you, right? Like that's such a vague, not interesting kind of, that is the stuff that a flat scene is made of, right? Is telling us that emotion. If instead, that feeling that she has, that emotion she has is somehow attached to her identity we feel this as readers, we feel this new empathy, this new compassion.

So instead of, feel devastated, you never listened to me. It's please listen to me. I feel like when you don't hear me, that makes our marriage something I thought it wasn't. And that means I am not in the marriage I thought I was. And that means I'm not the person I thought I wasn't. Oh my gosh, right. And see how it spirals and it becomes this much bigger thing.

And that is something that we as readers can get interested in. starts to get juicy and compelling. And so I think sometimes attaching uh an emotion to an aspect of your character's identity can be really meaningful and can really ramp things up in an uncomfortable way for your character.

Rhonda:

Oh, say more about that. Give me an example of uh you know, attaching an emotion to an aspect of your character's identity. That's really interesting.

Rebecca:

Yeah, I mean, I think I think it's a really, I think when we look at two characters who are uh who whoops, did somebody um when we look at two characters who are in love, and we're only looking at their dynamic, their the words they speak to each other, we get one we get we see that kind of surface story.

But when we understand how that relationship is shaping each of their identities and what it means to them, think that uh another example is watching a mother and a child uh have an argument, right? And maybe they're arguing about uh curfew, but really that child is arguing for their autonomy and their independence and they don't wanna... uh ah they don't, maybe they don't want to be like their older brother who never got away.

And so that's an identity issue. And mom is starting to lose her authority in the relationship and she's wondering about the meaning of her life. And you know, so attaching to these bigger picture things that you can then really attach to the theme of a novel or the theme of a memoir, right? That it becomes information that informs the character arc at large.

Rebecca:

Yeah, I love that. Um. Let's talk a little bit more about subtext. Can we talk a little bit about, you know, all the different ways that we can use subtext?

Rebecca:

Yeah, sure. So if we go back to that example of the kind of empty emotional telling, um what was the word I used? Devastated. Okay, so devastated. What the heck does deva... What the heck does devastated mean? And I love how you threw your, for those of you who are listening and can't see, Rhonda just threw her...her arm up in very dramatic, melodramatic kind of way.

And that's what we think of when we hear words like devastated. It's too emotional. It can start to become kind of melodramatic and silly. So we want to anchor those big emotions. And one of the most subtle ways to really give some nuance to the showing is through subtext. It's that thing that is happening beneath the surface.

So let's imagine this poor, devastated woman Um, uh, and there's, let's make it a man this time. We're picking on this woman too much. We've got this devastated man and he's at the dinner table and something has just happened. Um, and maybe he's devastated because, um, he's just very embarrassed by something.

So we could have him stand up and say, I'm devastated, or he could smile and maybe straighten and straighten the napkin that's on his lap. And he's, he's very embarrassed clearly. And so he's sort of fixated on that or on something on the tablecloth. And then when everyone is talking and the attention isn't on him anymore, he gets up and he leaves.

And let's imagine that this was a dinner party that he had been looking forward to and planning for six months and it was all he talked about. And the reader knows that they've had that kind of information upfront, but he's just walked away. Oh my goodness, what's going on um in leaving this moment that was supposed to be so special. Oh, we can feel the devastation.

So that's the difference. And it's subtext because it's happening underneath the surface. as the reader have to connect those dots, which is always really fun. have to understand what that action um means in this specific context. And so that's much more satisfying than being told what to think. think it gives us, we get to play too. We get to interact with the story and it's so fun to write as a reader.

Rhonda:

I was in a book club for, I think, like 20 years. And it was always fascinating how different people would take different things away from a book, right? So someone would say, oh, the ending was so sad. And someone else would say, no, the ending was hopeful. And you'd be like, you know, different, you know, because the book comes alive when a reader reads it, right? So people can take away different things.

Let's go back and talk a little bit more about interiority. Because for me, interiority has two aspects. There's like the things that your character thinking is thinking, has been thinking, uh and the things that your character is feeling in their body, right? That kind of embodied writing. How do you think about interiority?

Rebecca:

Yeah, I love that. I think you're absolutely right. And I think that different...I appreciate so much what you just said about readers walking away with different conclusions about a story. There's just nothing more fascinating than that. That's how you know it's a good book, right?

And I think as writers, we need to think about all of those different kinds of readers and understand that they experience emotion. Some people experience emotional impact more viscerally, some more intellectually, some more emotionally.

And so you know, once in a while there's a book that just touches everybody in book group, right? Like everybody's like, oh yeah. But normally they don't agree on a book, right? And it's like, what is it about this book? And I have a hunch that it's because that writer has figured out how to drill into all those different kinds of ways of touching people.

And so interiority, when it's physical, right, we get a sense of what that character feels. You know, in their fingertips, their, you know, in their stomach, in their, and, you know, bonus points if that physical sensation they feel is unique. It's not just butterflies in their stomach, right? If it's something kind of fun, you know, like that we haven't really thought about before, but then we go, oh, I know exactly what they mean. I've had that experience.

That's a great way to bring the reader in so that they feel that, um feel what the character is feeling. So I think that that is, um I think that's just a fantastic way we want to have as many different tools to touch the reader as possible. And then I think the interiority can also be, you know, like we talked about where it's more, uh hearing the thoughts uh that the character is having.

Rhonda:

Yeah. And it's great when it's a mix of those, right? Like when you have that literal sense and then you also know what they're thinking.

Rebecca:

Exactly. Exactly.

Rhonda:

And then some subtext and woo we're off to the race.

Rebecca:

And you've got a really complex, nuanced story. And it's fun because it's fun to play with narrators or fun to play with characters who aren't, you know, most of them are believing some kind of untruth when the story starts, right?

And so we can use those physical, sometimes the interiority isn't true. Like in the truest sense, you know, we're watching the experience they're having and they're having a reaction that we don't understand until we hear what they're thinking. And we say, Oh, that's not true what you're thinking or that's a interesting hot take on what's happening.

But the physical stuff doesn't lie. So that can be really, it's hard to control some of those physical sensations. So that can be a neat way to show, okay, she thinks this, but she's feeling this.

Rhonda:

Right. When you give advice on uh character arcs and emotionality for editing, how do you approach that?

Rebecca:

There I'm really looking for um understanding what the character wants, right? What is it that they want? I mean, you hear this in all the writing advice, but it's so fundamental and it's so important. It's what do they want? What's standing in their way? What's going to happen if they don't get it?

And those stakes need to be high enough so that the reader can imagine what it feels like not to have that thing happen, right? So that we can say, Oh my goodness, this poor character, what if it doesn't, what if it doesn't happen? What if they don't get what they want or need? Um, so it's, it's giving, it's, it's, it's, it's raising stakes in your story. It's a stakes intention that we're looking forward to stay engaged.

Rhonda:

Right. And then all of this, you know, the emotionality in interiority subtext, character arcs, making sure you understand what your character wants. When do we think about that? Are we outlining? Are we drafting? Are we revising? Is it across all of these? Is it editing, you know, just down at a line level? When do you suggest writers really take on board, you know, editing for emotional impact?

Rebecca:

All the time, all the time, all the time. I just love this stuff. But that's not my real answer. My real answer is it depends. It depends on your process. I think that there's so many absolutely legitimate ways to go about inserting these details.

But what I would say um is I think what I see most often, that's the hardest to undo. So in other words, I want this to be as efficient of an experience for people as possible because there's so many other things they need to be thinking about as well so we want to this simple.

And what I see a lot of my writers doing on their first draft is I tend to, I don't know, I think I have a lot of writers who get really irritated with books that kind of hit you over the head with meaning and over interpretation. And it's a pet peeve and I completely get it.

And their reaction, and I think this is a very understandable tendency is to hold back on emotionality because they don't want to be one of those writers who's like, here's the message, here's the point. Like that is just so undesirable.

Rhonda:

Here’s what you need to feel right now. Yeah.

Rebecca:

Yeah exactly. And so as a result, they're writing these very beautiful but rather detached stories. And when I ask for interiority, often the writer will say, well, it's obvious. Like I don't want to like tell them. And I think it's a very common pitfall too.

And I see this a lot in memoir because when a writer has lived the experience, it's hard to imagine that someone can't understand why they're feeling this way or what it reminds them of. It's like, come on, it's Uncle Luke. We don't know Uncle Luke. We've never met him.

So I really invite writers to throw it all down on the first very messy draft. um Just unless that feels like a distraction, unless that just feels like um for a writer who really has to work hard to pull that stuff out, this is not good advice. But for a writer who is consciously holding back on that for fear of being annoying to the reader, no, don't even think about the reader first draft. They don't exist yet. Get it all on the page because it's much easier to clean up than to try to generate that afterward. um For a lot of writers, that's the case.

So um I really like to see people thinking about that from the get-go because I also think that's an easier way for us to know the character we're writing about. And if you know our character from day one, we have a much easier way forward to understanding how they're going to react to all the things we're throwing at them.

So to my mind, that's the best case scenario but ah for a lot of writers, but not for all writers. I think that for someone who really um loves plot and who's writing um something, writing genre fiction and really focused on, I need to get this red herring here or I need to get this um romance buttoned up here or those kinds of things.

I think it's absolutely fine to start with your structure and think about all the points, the plot points that need to happen and then go back and have a checklist in which you're looking to see are these fundamental elements in here so that people can really connect with these characters.

Rhonda:

It's almost like an additional pass of the manuscript as you're.

Rebecca:

Oh, for sure, for sure, yeah.

Rhonda:

So let's talk a little bit about endings um and how a thing that I often see happen is, in fact, it came up in a coaching call earlier today where the writer was saying, like, I'm there, I've got like a couple of scenes in the end, and I feel frozen. So if someone comes to you with that dilemma, what kind of advice do you give them?

Rebecca:

Yeah, it's such a common. If you're out there and you're feeling this, yes, like you're not alone. I have worked with so many writers who the whole story has just flowed, and then they get to that ending and it's like, ah.

So I always invite those writers to go back and think about what is it you want your reader to walk away with? What do you want them to walk away feeling, thinking? What do you want them to miss when they close the book, right? What is just thinking about that? That's the time when you really think about your reader and how are you going to take care of them at the end?

And so in order to accomplish the goals that you set out, sometimes that is a good time to go back and really look at your story and say, okay, what was this thing about and what was the message? And oftentimes, the ending will come if you have given your characters uh a chance to earn that ending, right? So oftentimes, what a lot of writers feel that I work with is their ending is too rushed.

And it drives them crazy because they're like, everything was going and now this is just too tidy and neat. I, right. And that's, and we don't like it when we read it in other people's work. We don't like it in our own.

But I think what's interesting is here comes like that book club um example again, right? Where we'll all read a book in book club that has a very tidy ending. It's got the, the metaphorical red bow. Everything got tied up. Everybody's happy. And we love it. We're so happy for them. We just walk away happier and better people for having read that story.

And then the next month we read a book with the same happy ending and everything's tied up and we're just disgusted, right? And we're like, this book, this is so unrealistic. I hate the happy ending. It's not that we don't like happy endings. We like to believe in happy endings and we need our characters to earn those happy endings.

Rhonda:

..before the ending.

Rebecca:

Yeah, yeah. So exactly like it has to happen. There's all this build up to help you land that ending. So it's all about that character arc, think for largely is did your character really have a believable full on transformation? And do, do we understand how that happened?

And when, when it's believable, when we've seen them really overcome something, and we've seen that real, that real change in who they are. We don't care if they wind up with Prince Charming. We don't care if their children suddenly think they're the best thing in the world or they win the lottery. We're happy for them because we've been through all this stuff and we've seen them change in a way that has brought this into their lives.

And so I think oftentimes people will literally look at the last chapter and that's not necessarily the place to be looking if it's falling flat. It's a couple of scenes beforehand. And it's that overall character arc. Is it believable and is it finished? So usually when a final chapter is not working, I'll say, just keep it. It's probably fine. Let's go look at your middle again. We might need to add some things here.

Rhonda:

Because it's all about the arc. Absolutely. Yeah. So you've got a resource for us, which I absolutely love. It is a free workbook about writing excellent endings. Can you tell us a little bit about it? I'll put the link.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Thank you so much, Rhonda. Yeah, so I put this together for exactly the reason we're talking about, because so many people, and I'm talking about people who have never written a story before and people who have written many stories.

It's hard for all of us. And so what I wanted to do was just give some really, I've put together some prompts and some checklists and some just stuff that you can really just eyeball quickly and scan it and then apply it to your own story.

Does my story have this? Does it have this? And is it showing up in the ending in these ways? So it's just a really simple checklist to help you analyze what you've got there and what might need to shift a little bit.

Rhonda:

Love that, that's great. Okay, so that'll be in the show notes everyone. And you'll be able to click on that and get that from Rebecca. Thank you so much, Rebecca. This has been such a great conversation.

Rebecca:

Thank you so much, Rhonda. This has been really fun. I appreciate it.

Outro:

Thanks so much for hanging out with me today and for listening all the way to the end. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. While you're here, I would really appreciate it if you'd consider leaving a rating and review of the show. You can do that in whatever app you're using to listen to the show right now, and it just takes a few minutes. 

Your ratings and reviews tell the podcast algorithm gods that yes, this is a great show, definitely recommend it to other writers. And that will help us reach new listeners who might need a boost in their writing lives today as well. So please take a moment and leave a review. I'd really appreciate it. And I promise to read every single one. Thank you so much.