Links Mentioned in This Episode:

Define Your Neurodiversity Workbook 

Who We Are and What We Need (Podcast)

The Resilient Writers Radio Show: Interview with Catherine Quiring – Full Episode Transcript

Intro:

Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome to The Resilient Writers Radio Show. I'm your host, Rhonda Douglas. And this is the podcast for writers who want to create and sustain a writing life they love. 

Because let's face it, the writing life has its ups and downs, and we want to not just write, but also to be able to enjoy the process so that we'll spend more time with our butt-in-chair getting those words on the page. 

This podcast is for writers who love books and everything that goes into the making of them. For writers who want to learn and grow in their craft and improve their writing skills. Writers who want to finish their books and get them out into the world so their ideal readers can enjoy them. Writers who want to spend more time in that flow state. 

Writers who want to connect with other writers to celebrate and be in community, in this crazy roller coaster ride, we call the writing life. We are resilient writers. We're writing for the rest of our lives and we're having a good time doing it. So welcome, Writer. I'm so glad you're here. Let's jump right into today's show.

Rhonda:

Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome back to another episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. I have Catherine Quiring with me today. Catherine is a licensed mental health counselor, a podcast host, an empath, a mystic mom of two and a writer. Um, and we're going to talk about all things neurodiversity today. Thank you Catherine for being here.

Catherine:

Thanks Rhonda for having me. It's so great to be here.

Rhonda:

Yeah, it's lovely to have you. So, um, I guess the first thing I wanted to um talk about is just how did you um end up specializing in neurodiversity?

Catherine:

Mainly from discovering my own neurodiversity. But I mean, I think it naturally happened before I even knew about my neurodiversity. I had many clients who I resonated with really well and were drawn to me that ended up also being late diagnosed, ADHD, autism, or both.

And um I am also, you know, highly sensitive and pathetic, as you mentioned, and so intuitive. so like any of those kind of um things are people that I work well with. And I found that there's so much overlap with neurodivergence and those qualities.

So especially like the non stereotypical version of autism or, you know, the more female presentation of ADHD is what I was seeing a lot.

Rhonda:

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about that. What is the female presentation of ADHD and especially for someone. So I talked to a lot of writers who are like really late diagnosed or like being neurodiverse, but aren't sure. But they, see stuff online and they're like, wait, that sounds like me. Right.

Catherine:

Yes.

Rhonda:

And just, just for the record, my daughter has ADHD. So very familiar. And so does her partner. It's just like an ADHD house, you know? So how do you... What is feminine ADHD look like?

Catherine:

So I think it tends to be more internal. There's less of the outward body hyperactivity. um For younger boys, you often see a lot of provoking behaviors to uh get the dopamine up for them, where for girls, it turns more into interior perfectionism um often.

It's more like, oh, I'm having trouble organizing my thoughts or keeping up with this or getting enough of this done. so perfectionism comes in as a coping tool. um And so there's often a lot of like inner management around all of the ADHD symptoms that we don't even realize are ADHD symptoms at the time, right?

Just like spacing out, like lots of different threads of conversation at the same time, a kind of thing, you know, in our brains and like going here to here to here to here to here. And it just feels like spaghetti brain, right? It just, and that feels normal.

Being late a lot, being like flustered around things. That was the one of the first indications for me that I was ADHD was just, I was always late everywhere. No matter what I did, you know, other things I was able to like develop skills around and that I just couldn't get a grip on.

Rhonda:

It’s interesting because after my daughter was diagnosed, we, you know, we were visiting my mom and my daughter was like, Nanny has ADHD. And I was like, yes, like can't be on time, you know, has a pot on the stove and walks away from it. Like just, you know, like so many things on the go.

Catherine:

Yes. um And there's often like, my husband calls it my circles. Like whatever's in front of me is what I do. Right? can't just attend to a task and complete the task. It's like whatever's in front of me is what I do. So I'm picking up something, trying to put it away. Then whatever I find in that room, I go put it away in that room.

Then I find, the dishes need to be done. I'm going to stop and do that. Oh, wait, no, I need to go back to the laundry. Right? That kind of thing where it's whatever's in front of you is what is most easily attended to rather than holding something in your brain of like, you know, this is the thing I was doing.

Rhonda:

Yeah, totally!

Catherine:

Um, and the way it shows up often with writing is like difficulty with task initiation, difficulty, maintaining focus, um, difficulty getting into the like creative flow.

Rhonda:

Okay.

Catherine:

But I think people with ADHD are often more, um, able to do that once they're able to get in the flow, once they're able to get into like hyper-focus, then you can kind of put the blinders on and be like, I am here. Right.

Rhonda:

It’s amazing. It’s such a fgft.

Catherine:

It is, it is a gift. uh And Um, one of the other gifts of ADHD is creativity. So I think what happens a lot is there's like all these ideas of things you want to write or things you want that want to come out of you. And it's having enough flow or hyper-focus to get enough of it out.

Rhonda:

Yeah.

Catherine:

Right. Yes.

Rhonda:

I see that a lot where like someone starts a novel and then they're like 10,000 words, 15,000 words in.

05:23
And you know, that's when it starts to get a little bit hard. so people abandon that novel and start a new shiny new idea. Yes. And then they get 15,000 words of that and then, oh, OK, this feels hard. they go to another shiny new idea.

I think that's one of the reasons so many people end up not finishing books and getting them out into the world.

Catherine:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, most of my books have been poetry, which is like more I write a poem, I'm done. Right. Right. And then how do I organize them in a way that makes sense? And that was a lot easier for me than like completing a whole story. um And I'm sorry, my. need to put the do not disturb that I thought was on is not on. Can you just say where is it? There it is. There you go. OK. So.

Rhonda:

Yeah, I think that's really interesting. And, you know, as someone who started with poetry and then went to the short story, it's got poetry and short story. And even the essay, it's got that quick dopamine hit, right?

Catherine:

Yes.

Rhonda:

You finish one, you finish one, you're done and your brain loves it, you know. But when you are in a novel, one of the things that makes it really hard to finish a book length work of 350 or 400 pages is how long you have to stay with it. Is that something that's challenging for ADHD folks?

Catherine:

Absolutely. Anything that takes maintenance that then becomes like more like a chore is so much harder. So something that I do a lot for myself and with clients is how can we bring the motivation back in? How can we bring the fun back in? How can we bring the excitement back in?

Rhonda:

Right.

Catherine:

Sometimes it's even just creating the environment around your writing space. That's like, oh, I have my favorite drink. This is my time. Like I have my candle going, have whatever music or complete silence, like whatever I need that's like, huh, this is me time, right? And then that really helps, um, bring you into the flow, right? Or bring in the motivation and the inspiration.

Rhonda:

Yeah. So that's something you would recommend for anyone who has ADHD is like basically gamify your life a little bit.

Catherine:

Absolutely.

Rhonda:

It feel like it's fun. I love that. Yeah.

Catherine:

Yeah.

Rhonda:

What are some of the challenges that you see with folks who might feel like they're neurodiverse, but they're not sure. Like they see something on the internet and they're like, Oh, that kind of sounds like me. Like what kind of challenges would might somebody be experiencing if they thought they were neurodiverse, but weren't really sure.

Catherine:

Yeah. So some of the things I mentioned before, like maybe going in circles around your house or like not being able to complete. Like I was doing this task, like I'm doing the laundry. Oh, but wait, I need to go get something. And then I'm off on another task or I'm off on another adventure or whatever like that's really common.

When you're in conversations, like going three different areas at once, right? Or jumping to like, oh, there was this one time that that happened to me, right? And it's not really what the other person is expecting out of the conversation is really common and it's really enjoyable for other people with ADHD or who's neurodiverse.

They like love jumping around like that and it's really easy to follow. But if you notice other people are like, hmm, why did you say that? You know, like I'm surprised that kind of story came out of that. uh That could be an indication.

The like having difficulty starting tasks, having difficult completing tasks, that kind of thing. One of the reasons for that is ADHD brains are more in like theta waves more often and are let have fewer of the beta waves, which are like higher frequency that are more task orientation.

Rhonda:

Okay.

Catherine:

And we're more in theta waves, which is part of why we're more creative because that's where creativity happens. So even, um, I'm getting to like a helpful thing, but my ADHD brain went there. Um, of like putting theta waves on in the background. just do like YouTube videos or Spotify or whatever with like theta waves. And that helps my brain go into like calm hyper-focused, like just I can be present.

Rhonda:

I love that!

Catherine:

Because that's attuning to where your brain already is generally. And like working with that.

Rhonda:

Yeah, I talked to all writers about having a writing ritual. So that's what you were talking about. Like, you know, here's my candle. I've got my reward stickers. Every time I sit down, I get a sticker when I get six stickers. I that. Get a treat, you know. uh

Catherine:

Yes.

Rhonda:

And ah and I have I always have a special mug theme to the novel I'm working on. You know, I listen to a particular playlist, all of the things like it's just, yes, you know, I have a whole five census thing that I, that I suggest people go through.

Um, so that's something that can help you kind of get into a focus state and, know, focus is the precondition to, to flow. So you can't focus, you can't get into flow. So, um, what are some other things that can help writers stay with it? You know, because it's so easy to just bounce out of your seat.

Catherine:

Yes. So I think it's noticing what conditions create flow for you. So when you are in flow, what are the things that are helping create that for you? Right. Sometimes it's like, I don't have a to-do list or I've written down everything I need to do for my to-do list. So I don't have to keep my brain does not have to keep pinging to that. Right.

I can just be with whatever I'm interested in again, making whatever your wanting to focus on more interesting for yourself. So I was thinking, even if you're wanting to move on to a different novel, what if you think about your new character having a conversation with your old character, right?

Something that like brings the interest back to the old characters and like brings some fresh perspective to them and completing that, that kind of thing, right? Anything that, yeah, like gamifies it, brings interest, intensity, dopamine, just really, really enhances that.

Yeah, even if you want to like go for a walk and do it like, just talk, you know, into a voice memo or something, right, because that's going to get the dopamine flowing and the endorphins flowing if you can't just sit down and write, right to get yourself back into that story or that kind of thing.

Rhonda:

Yeah, that's where dictation helps if you can.

Catherine:

Exactly. Yeah. 

Rhonda:

So you have a workbook that's called Define Your Neurodiversity Workbook.

Catherine:

Yes.

Rhonda:

And can you talk about the Goldilocks nervous system. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Catherine:

Yeah, absolutely. I finding that metaphor was really helpful to me because we both with ADHD and autism, we tend to have a lot of uh extra noise in our lives or extra like sensory things or attentional kind of things that take up so much energy that other people aren't having to deal with all the time.

And kind of like creating your writing space, your writing rituals, you know, creates that like, this is just right for me. This is the Goldilocks experience for me, right? This might be a little bit, the music is too loud or it's too warm or it's, um you know, there's too many people in the coffee shop or whatever the thing is, right?

It's like, I need to find the just right or I to the library and it's too quiet, right? Like, where's my just right kind of environment um that helps me really be present and focus and helps my whole body feel calm. And like, it doesn't need to keep attending to other things, whether that's sensory things or whether that's like, yeah, ways that your brain would go.

Rhonda:

Right. Yeah. It's funny. You mentioned the sensory things. Is that more?

Catherine:

It seems to more autism.

Rhonda:

It's more the autism side of things. YEAH, yeah.

Catherine:

But highly sensitive person kind of thing, Elaine Aron’s stuff also has the same like sensory issues, just not the same kind of ritual and social issues.

Rhonda:

Right. Right. Yeah. Love that. And I do think that there's a portion of writers who are more highly sensitive. And, you know, it wouldn't surprise me at all if these are people who kind of started with poetry, right?

Catherine:

Yeah. Well, and I think we intend, we tend to have really rich interior lives, which would make sense that we really enjoy books and stories and writing and bringing those interior reflections into the world.

Rhonda:

Yeah, totally. um So when you work with your clients, are you working most on coping mechanisms? So my daughter got diagnosed, we basically learned like, are the coping mechanisms? But then she got medication and her life changed. Like she went from a C student to an A student overnight and was saying, I can't believe everybody would say it took an hour to do homework and it would take me three hours you know.

Catherin:

Yeah, right.

Rhonda:

Everything just really changed for her. um Especially for the late diagnosed person, you know, someone in their forties or fifties who just got diagnosed. What would you recommend? You  know.

Catherine:

The first thing I recommend is thinking about supporting yourself rather than fixing yourself.

Rhonda:

Oh, I love that. Say more about that.

Catherine:

So these are real gifts and challenges that you have with your specific neuro type and how can you support yourself in the limitations and the things that don't work quite as easily in our society the way it's set up.

How can you give yourself accommodations? How can you support yourself? How can you give yourself permission around that? Like, maybe it's just okay that you're late all the time. Maybe it's okay that you need ah that the way you do tasks in your house is like little by little, whatever room you're in.

You know, like how can I give myself as much permission and support and encouragement there rather than judgment or blame or shame or um trying to...fix myself, right? Because that isn't going to work.

Rhonda:

Seeing yourself as a problem. Right.

Catherine:

Yeah. Yeah. So seeing it as ways that are like needs rather than preferences and like, how can I meet those needs? How can I support myself to meet those needs and operate well enough in society?

Something else I do a lot is like, how can we reduce the expectations that you have on yourself? Because society sets up so many expectations and especially ah highly sensitive or empathic or just women in general maybe tend to take on or feel the pressure of those expectations a lot more and those demands.

And so I think saying like, okay, instead of doing like 10 things today or instead of writing like five chapters, what if I just get a paragraph or a chapter? Like that is my goal and if I get more, it's icing on the cake.

Rhonda:

Right.

Catherine:

And you know, I think for creative people, especially with ADHD, there's such a roller coaster of when you're in the flow and when you're not. And for each person, I think it's really different. I'm sure you see this in your groups of like, is a daily writing practice helpful to write something no matter what? Or do I just keep preparing myself for when the flow comes, I can clear my schedule and just write for like two days or whatever that is, right?

Rhonda:

I've never been a big proponent of like real writers write every day because I think that most of that came from male writers. Yeah. woman doing the dishes and the laundry. And many of us are trying to write a book while we are employed and trying to make sure there's toilet paper in the bathroom. So like, it's challenging.

Catherine:

Yeah.

Rhonda:

Challenging all the way around.

Catherine:

Yeah. For me, I mean, this is helpful across the board with anything, but co-working is so helpful.

Rhonda:

Yes, body doubling.

Catherine:

Yes, the body doubling. So that's helpful for task and it's so helpful for writing too, right? That like that's when I write the most is when I have my writing groups during the week is like that's when I have enough of somebody else's energy that I can stay present. And that really helps me get into my flow.

Rhonda:

Yes. In my First Book Finish program, we have uh community writing sessions.

Catherine:

Yes.

Rhonda:

Everyone shows up. We're online. And we're all writing together for 45 minutes. it just, until you've done that kind of community writing, even online, like it's great in real life. I've done it in real life, but, even online, it just changes everything in your life.

Catherine:

Yes. And when things are scheduled like that, that, know, you're going to show up for, it's a lot easier to be present and your brain might not work with you that particular day. Right. But it's still a lot easier to be like, well, I'm to show up and try to write during that time at least.

Rhonda:

Yeah. Absolutely. So, um, I wanted to talk a little bit more about the Define Your Neurodiversity Workbook. This is an interactive workbook. And so if you think you might be neurodiverse, is it to diagnose or is it more to sort of better understand who you are and what's going on for you?

Catherine:

It's more to better understand who you are, what's going on for you and how you support yourself.

Rhonda:

Okay.

Catherine:

Yeah.

Rhonda:

And so people can find it. I'll put a link in the show notes, but people can also find it on Amazon. Yes. And you also have a, you have a podcast tell us about it—Who We Are and What We Need .

Catherine:

Yes, that has been the version of the podcast. I'm about to relaunch it as The Curious Empath, but, um, there are four seasons of lots of really interesting conversations, um, and thoughts that you can go ahead and check out under Who We Are and What We Need.

Some of that's about neurodivergence. Some of it's about the Enneagram, like different frameworks for understanding yourself and how to support yourself in this world. But the title even came out of a lot of thoughts about neurodivergence. And like, how do we support ourselves? understand who we are, what we need, and then support our needs.

Rhonda:

And yeah, and make it okay. Like not turning yourself, who you are, into a problem that needs to be solved. I love that.

Catherine:

Exactly.

Rhonda:

Yes. So, so helpful.

Catherine, can you think of other than we've talked about the writing ritual and getting that set and we've talked about body doubling. Is there anything else anything else you can think of for someone who's, you know, really trying to they're trying to finish a novel. They're trying to finish.

You know, I know on the Internet it's popular to be like, write your book with AI this weekend. You know, don't do that. We're making art. And so it takes time. you have any other thoughts, tips, techniques for someone who is needing to stay with a project for a while?

Catherine:

Well, the first thing that's coming up for me is just like giving yourself a break from it for like a week.

Rhonda:

Catherine:

Yeah. Or, you know, a couple of weeks, like whatever it is that you're like, OK, now I can come back into it be more excited again. It feels a little fresher to me instead of a chore. Like, how do I turn this from a chore into something enjoyable, right?

So one thing might be taking a break from it. One thing might be like, how do I spice this up a little bit? How do I like even insert some wacky idea into like the plot that maybe I will or won't use, but gets my juices flowing again, right?

Something like that that like, or just having personal conversations with the characters during your day, you know, like where they feel like people that you want to spend time with.

Rhonda:

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so important. I think um the more we focus on enjoying the process, the easier it is to stay with something long term. That goes for like working out. That goes for um finishing a book.

Catherine:

Yeah. I think it's creating the invitation for yourself, the space, like, like you're saying where it feels like an invitation.

Rhonda:

Yes.

Catherine:

That invites you into feeling motivated to do it rather than pushing yourself. And anytime there's a part of you that's pushing, you know, to be able to say like, okay, thank you. And can you step back? Cause it's not helping me. Cause then that just brings up resistance and it brings up blocks and you know, being able to focus on it.

Rhonda:

Is with folks with ADHD or autism of like, if you feel the pressure to do it, you can't do it. Like is that a thing?

Catherine:

Yes. That it's very common. Yeah.

Rhonda:

Yeah. I'm a big procrastinator and I sometimes think like when I load the pressure, you know…

Catherine:

Yeah, right.

Rhonda:

It's be good and it's gotta be, you know, then I find task initiation like sitting down to write. So I have to tell myself, we're just going to go to the desk and play around.

Catherine:

Right. Yes.

Rhonda:

And this is where I like give myself a sticker every time I sit down, you know, and it just, it just helps. I don't I don't think I have ADHD, but all of these things just help me. Yes. Just make it more fun, more enjoyable, more pleasant and less like, as you say, like less like a chore.

Catherine:

Yes. And, um, so I always forget there's like four things I learned from, uh, this book, um, which is really helpful for women with ADHD.

Rhonda:

Ooh. Okay. I'll link by Amelia Kelley.

Catherine:

The first half of it was like super helpful to me. The second half is more um like specific coping mechanisms. But one of the things she talks about is there are four ways that we are able to focus. And I always forget some of them, but it's basically like urgency or motivation.

Like some sort of urgency or deadline or like I have to that we procrastinate until that happens. And then that gets the focus going. Um or motivation and interest.

Rhonda:

Right. Yes.

Catherine:

So you have to gamify it or create enough deadlines that actually feel like deadlines for yourself or the writing groups that like, okay, this is when I know I'm going to be here and write, you know, that kind of thing.

Rhonda:

Oh like I have to send this chapter to my critique group by this deadline.

Catherine:

Yes. Right.

Rhonda:

So useful. Yeah. So I'll put a link to that. And I'll also put a link out to your, um to your uh workbook, the Define Your Neurodiversity Workbook, because I think, you know, the more we can understand ourselves and what we're like, yes, it's not just our life. It's everything in our life gets right. Right. So good.

Catherine:

And um I should have on my resource page, which I can give you to link to as well, like places you can go, I do assessments, you know, and there's like a few other directories that you can look for and find neurodivergent therapist, neuroaffirming therapist who are psychologists who'll be able to do like a really good assessment for you and look into the like female presenting types that some people would just glaze over and be like, okay, let's look at what's really going on for you.

Rhonda:

I think that's really important because I think, you know, we see people talk about neurodiversity now much more. think it's it's a generation thing. My generation, Gen X, we didn't really talk about it. Girls weren't diagnosed, were just, we were quiet, so we were fine. uh

And, but in my daughter's generation, she's 30. And like her, I can't even tell you the number of her friends have some form of neurodiversity. It so it's so much more talked about. And so people will be seeing it online.

And I think it's important to like, when you see something from somebody who's saying, okay, this means you're neurodiverse because I've seen people say this means you're neurodiverse. I'm like, no, it doesn't like that. So there's a lot of misinformation out there. And I think it's really important to get a professional assessment.

Catherine:

Yes. Yeah. And I think, you know, if there's information out there that feels helpful to you, you can use it, whether you have a diagnosis or not, right? You're like, oh yeah task initiation is hard for me, I'm gonna learn coping mechanisms around that, right?

Like executive function is difficult, like I'm gonna learn things around that, right? uh And so you don't have to have a diagnosis, it just uh can help to know you're part of a tribe, part of a community, part of like, okay, these really are needs, not preferences, you know, it can help with things like that, but you can take the tools no matter what.

Rhonda:

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I remember my daughter talking about executive function when she was like four she was the kid who would always lose her bits. And uh I wish I knew then what was coming later. It would have made it easier to uh parent someone who's, which is of course a challenge in and of itself.

So um thank you so much for this, Catherine.

Catherine:

Absolutely.

Rhonda:

This has been such a fascinating conversation. And um I will link out to your website and to that workbook. And I encourage you to go and check out everything Catherine has to offer. Thank you so much for being with me, Catherine.

Catherine:

Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Rhonda.

Outro:

Thanks so much for hanging out with me today and for listening all the way to the end. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. While you're here, I would really appreciate it if you'd consider leaving a rating and review of the show. You can do that in whatever app you're using to listen to the show right now, and it just takes a few minutes. 

Your ratings and reviews tell the podcast algorithm gods that yes, this is a great show, definitely recommend it to other writers. And that will help us reach new listeners who might need a boost in their writing lives today as well. So please take a moment and leave a review. I'd really appreciate it. And I promise to read every single one. Thank you so much.