Links Mentioned in This Episode:

A Writer's Guide to Improving Focus & Presence (Free)

Finch (a self-care gamification app)

4theWords (a writing game where you fight monsters with your word count!)

Monica Hay’s Website

Intro:

Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome to The Resilient Writers Radio Show. I'm your host, Rhonda Douglas. And this is the podcast for writers who want to create and sustain a writing life they love. 

Because let's face it, the writing life has its ups and downs, and we want to not just write, but also to be able to enjoy the process so that we'll spend more time with our butt-in-chair getting those words on the page. 

This podcast is for writers who love books and everything that goes into the making of them. For writers who want to learn and grow in their craft and improve their writing skills. Writers who want to finish their books and get them out into the world so their ideal readers can enjoy them. Writers who want to spend more time in that flow state. 

Writers who want to connect with other writers to celebrate and be in community, in this crazy roller coaster ride, we call the writing life. We are resilient writers. We're writing for the rest of our lives and we're having a good time doing it. So welcome, Writer. I'm so glad you're here. Let's jump right into today's show.

Rhonda:

Well, hey there writer, welcome back to another episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. I have my friend Monica Hay with me today and we're gonna talk about resistance. So let me just introduce Monica to you. Monica has a master's in publishing and a bachelor's in English Lit from UC Berkeley. She thinks of herself as a recovering academic. She used to work at Bradford Literary Agency where she assisted Laura Bradford with her query pile. So she really knows what a good one looks like. She was the director's assistant at Write On Con, which was an online children's writers conference. And she's collaborated with hundreds of authors. She has learned how to manage her writer's resistance the hard way after struggling with it for years. And she is a coach and writing mentor. And she's got a fabulous membership that I'll link to in the show notes for anyone interested, welcome, welcome Monica. Thanks for being here.

Monica:

Thank you for having me Rhonda. 

Rhonda:

So let's talk about resistance because you and I have a similar journey that way in terms of like just fighting the good fight to get to the page. So what's your writing journey been like and how have you faced resistance? 

Monica:

Yeah, so I feel like this is a pretty common experience but you know, writing was so fun and easy as a child. Like it was not a problem because I wasn't a perfectionist yet. I had lots of fun writing as a kid. I used to write like Sabrina, the Teenage Witch fan fiction. At the time I didn't realize it was fan fiction. And then I wrote a book when I was in high school, which will never see the light of day as it should not. And once I got older writing got a lot harder. So I would say when I went to Berkeley, writing got really hard. And ultimately a lot of it was just like insane amounts of perfectionism. And that's why I say that I'm a recovering academic, right? Cause in some ways like these university systems like quite literally praise that perfectionism and cause it and almost perpetuate it. 

Rhonda:

Yes.

Monica:

So after I graduated, I didn't write for a really long time and I thought there was something wrong with me. I had friends, you know, one of my friends, Morgan, has written, I think like, God, 13 manuscripts maybe. 

Rhonda:

Wow, yeah. 

Monica:

And she's younger than me. She's like 30, right? And so I'm like, well, what's wrong with me that my friend can write so quickly, so easily? And I started learning about the brain science around resistance and that's when it clicked that it was not a me problem. And so, you know, I think a lot of times with resistance, people just think like there's something wrong with them or that they're broken, which is just not the case. 

Rhonda:

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. So we come at it from different sides because I, when I was doing my masters, I did a, I was doing a masters of management for the voluntary sector, but I but I like really wanted to do an MFA and I hadn't, you know, so for my final paper, I did something on like the use of poetry in organizations, like what, what even is it? Not even a thing. But in order to do the paper, I had to study creativity. And I learned that there's this whole body of scholarship on creativity and how you...you know, how you foster creativity, what helps with creativity? And I was like, oh my God, it's not me. It's not just me, you know? So yeah, I totally, totally get that. So do you have like an inner critic? Do you have an inner mean girl who like yammers at you when you're writing? 

Monica:

Oh yeah. 

Rhonda:

What kind of things does your inner mean girl say? 

Monica:

She used to be a lot worse. She's gotten over many, many years of therapy and work on this has gotten much much better, I will say. It used to be things like, what's the point of doing this? What's the point of writing if you don't know it's gonna be at a seller? What's the point of doing this if you don't know if it's gonna go anywhere? What's kind of like the whole idea of like, oh, well, if this isn't going to be successful, then it's not worth doing, right? Which is very like fixed mindset belief. But at the time it was, you know, I was in this like very toxic place of like feeling like I had to prove myself as a writer. And like, I know that some people, I work with a lot of people who are gifted kids. I was not a gifted kid. I was like the opposite. I was like undiagnosed ADHD. Like I had lots of struggles as a child in education. And so getting into Berkeley was a big deal. And I was like, oh, I have to like prove that I'm smart. 

Rhonda:

Right. Right

Monica:

And so for years it was just about like, oh, I need to prove that I'm smart. So if I was writing… All I could think of was like, I have to prove that I'm smart. And if it doesn't come out good, then there's something wrong with me and that I'm not meant to be a writer, whatever it was. 

Rhonda:

I'm not talented because my first draft isn't brilliant. Yeah, yeah, totally. So do you think that working at a literary agency made it worse? 

Monica:

Oh my God, yes. 

Rhonda:

Yeah, I'm curious about that because like...there's all these fabulous books getting deals and you're struggling to write. So, yeah. 

Monica:

Yeah, I think, I mean, I'm very grateful for the experience I had at those agencies. I've worked for two of them and I don't regret it at all. For sure, I really am grateful, but at the same time, there were a lot of books that would come through the quote unquote slush pile, I don't really like that term, that I really loved or that I thought were amazing and then they get rejected for whatever reason. And I did learn that none of it's personal, you know, like it's never personal, really isn't. But it does make your perfectionism worse, definitely. Cause then you see all these books that just like aren't going anywhere. 

Rhonda:

Right. They're good. 

Monica:

But they're good and they're not going anywhere because it's just the industry. 

Rhonda:

Right. So I can see why you'd be thinking once the point, you know, yeah. I think, I mean, you know, the great thing that's happened with indie publishing is it's just given writers so much more freedom. Like it's liberating in that sense, because if you want to go traditional, you can, but you know, you've got other options as well. And some of those options, especially for genre work can be so much more successful. Yeah, I think it's given authors just, you know, a lot more freedom to be like, do I actually want this particular path, right? I think like both paths are awesome. I'm much more familiar with the traditional path because that's what I study, that's what I worked in. But I also think indie is great. Either can work. 

Rhonda:

Yeah, absolutely. So the writers that work with you, so you have a bootcamp that's all about resistance, right? 

Monica:

Yes, I do. 

Rhonda:

So when people show up to that bootcamp, what's going on? Like what's the most, what are the most common stories of resistance that you hear? What's the most common experience?

Monica:

I get a lot of people that have met all over the board. I would say there are people who haven't written in 10 years because of their resistance. There are people who have written more recently, but they're really struggling with resistance and they just want to have tools to figure it out. I also get a lot of people who've experienced like real trauma around writing. So for example, I had like a client who when she was getting her master's degree, her professor sat them down in a room and like went down the line and was like, you have talent, you don't have talent, you have talent, you don't have talent. 

Rhonda:

Oh my God. 

Monica:

Yep. And she was not one of the ones that had talent and she didn't write for 20 years after that. 

Rhonda:

Oh my God..

Monica:

Uh-huh. So and that's not an uncommon story. Like I hear stories like that a lot. And it breaks my heart. It really breaks my heart. So I get stories like that. I hear people who just don't understand why it's so hard and just think that they should give up. That's kind of what happens. 

Rhonda:

Right, yeah. So. Now I'm going to ask you to give us the mini version of your bootcamp.

Monida:

Yes. 

Rhonda:

So for those of us, like, what's the, I feel like we're always looking for this, this special secret, right? Like what's the special secret to overcoming or resisting your resistance or reframing your resistance or, you know, being able to, to get to the page. Like what's, yeah. Walk us through how you think about that. 

Monica:

The way that I think about resistance is I think about parts of the brain. Okay, so we have the amygdala, which I like to call the dramatic ass amygdala because she's a dramatic little biatch. Sorry, she is. And she's always scanning for threats. And she's like, are we in danger? Okay, if they're not, I'm gonna want to chill and scroll TikTok because we need to save energy. And then we have our prefrontal cortex, which is the conscious, like, I want to go like right and make my dreams come true.

So these prefrontal cortex and the amygdala don't get along. They actually fight a lot. So when you're like, oh, I want to write, and your brain's like, no, like we're gonna go do the dishes instead. Your prefrontal cortex wants to jump to the page because it knows that tomorrow you'll be very grateful you did that. But your amygdala, your fight or flight response is not having it. So when it comes to resistance, I hate to admit this, but it's true, it never fully goes away because those parts of the brain are so, so wired into us and we can't unsubscribe from them. Okay, like the prefrontal cortex is like, I want to fulfill my dreams, I wanna show up to write, I wanna write a book, whatever. The amygdala doesn't give a shit about your dreams or your goals, it just wants you to survive. 

Rhonda:

Right.

Monica:

You have to learn to just notice. And I always tell people what I call the bare minimum in the bootcamp. So when you sit down to write and your brain, your amygdala is like, no, we're not doing this. This is exhausting. I'm tired. This is gonna take a lot of energy and a lot of work. You have to activate the prefrontal cortex to get you to stay in that chair. And what I like to say is that that can take some neuron building. So writing neurons.

For example, when you go to the gym, you don't go to the gym and immediately start lifting 50 pounds. Okay, like you're gonna build up to it. It's the same with writing. You gotta build up some neurons, build up some of the writing muscle. So that's why so many people, I don't know if this happens in your practice, but I hear a lot of clients come in who do NaNoWriMo and like they do it for like a week and then they crash and burn and they get burned out. And they're like, why didn't it work? And I'm like, you gotta build the writing neurons before you do it.

So that's kind of just like the boot camp in a nutshell, just realizing like what kind of brain we have and working with it. So building some neurons and just understanding this like tug of war that your prefrontal cortex and your mangle are always having. 

Rhonda:

I love that you say it's never going away, which it's possible to look at that and be like, oh, despair, I will always have this with me. But I know from having gotten books out into the world and talking to folks who've like published bestselling award winning books, they still have resistance when they sit down to write. They just have learned a set of coping skills that allows them to acknowledge it and move past it. 

Monica:

Exactly.

Rhonda:

And I think so many writers are like, well, if I have resistance, then I can't write. And that's not that, that ain't it folks. 

Monica:

That ain't it folks. Also, if you, if you don't have resistance, you're amazing and you, you're some kind of superhuman because most of our brains do. And it's not just with writing, man. Like every, it's everything like, oh, I want to go to the gym, but I have resistance. Like your brain, your amygdala doesn't want to put out energy that it doesn't have to put out. 

Rhonda:

Yeah. You've just described my whole life there. I'm crying so hard. Like I have a personal trainer and it's been fascinating to see like the overlaps with my writing life, right? Like, because I can write so well when I make a plan to meet a friend, you know, but like I can blow off a writing session if it's just me. Yeah, absolutely. 

So do you think it's different for folks who are neurospicy? Like if you have ADD, ADHD, or you're on the spectrum, I don't know if people are still using that, I've got an air quotes. Is it different? And if so, how, and how do you need to think about it?

Monica:

It is a bit different. I think, you know, as an ADHDer, my resistance was probably a bit worse only because of the fact that my brain does seek dopamine really intensely. And that's just the way that my brain is built, right? Like, it's just, it's not that there's something wrong with my brain, it's just the way it's built. And so with neuro-spicy people, it does take a bit more elbow grease. So for example, they say that, you know, it takes like 21 days on average to make a habit. From time for neurospicy people, it can take like two months or more to make a habit. And that's just the reality of the way our brains work. And it's because we are seeking that quick release of dopamine. And so for example, when I sit down to write, my brain's like, Instagram and TikTok are like so fun. Like, why don't you just go do that instead of write? And so I've had to create systems and I've had to gamify. So something I always recommend to my Neurospicy clients is gamifying the hell out of everything. So for example, I gamify myself care with an app. 

Rhonda:

What do you mean?

Monica:

So gamifying is like, when I write, every 15 minutes of writing, I give myself a sticker. 

Rhonda:

Oh, oh, I just bought new stickers. I just literally bought a whole raft. I'm looking for them. Look, puffy little bird stickers. And I have a little sheet that says novel revisions bird by bird and every time I get a bird and I'm so, I can't even tell you how happy it makes me. 

Monica:

It works for everybody. Yes. So I give myself a sticker. I have the app Finch, which I do recommend highly. And it gamifies my self-care. So when I get up, I can just like gamify all of it. And it like cheers me on with like this little like mini bird that gets excited at me when I like fulfill my self-care duties. 

Rhonda:

Oh my gosh. So this is called Finch.

Monica:

Yes. 

Rhonda:

All right. I'll link to that in the show notes. Awesome. 

Monica:

Yes. So I always tell people to gamify. There's also, I have not personally used this, but there's also 4thewords, which is a number four and then the words you might've heard of it. And that apparently is really helpful for writers to gamify while writing. Because you're like fighting monsters and stuff. So yeah, gamification all the way, like making it fun to actually show up. Basically like giving yourself a reason to be like, oh, I did 15 minutes and I get some kind of treat. And that doesn't mean like it has to be chocolate. It means like giving yourself a sticker or whatever would feel fun to you. 

Rhonda:

Yeah. I have, I am big on that because I think that we tell ourselves stories about it's so hard. It's so difficult. It's so exhausting. It takes forever. And like why would your brain want to go right if that's the story you're always telling? So I do like this intensely pleasurable ritual. Like I've got a special mug and I've got a special candle and I've got music and I've got like in the winter, I have these like Dickens mittens made of alpaca and like I, you know, fingerless gloves. Soft shawl and like I am making it the most pleasurable experience possible so that my brain is like, oh let’s do more of that, that felt really good you know. Whether you’re a neurospicy or not your brain works in a certain way.

Monica:

Yup

Rhonda:

So constantly telling yourself “Oh so hard, so hard" as opposed to making it. I’ve got a friend Elizabeth de Mariaffi she writer literary and she’s like “It’s the best part of my day!”

Monica:

Yes.

Rhonda:

You know, like how do you make this the best part of your day? 

Monica:

I love that reframe. 

Rhonda:

Yeah. 

Monica:

I think for people who are in the resistance struggle, I always have to remind them, sometimes it can take the amygdala 10 or 15 minutes, sometimes even longer to just chill out when you've shown up to write. So stick with it. You know, like if you want to make writing feel fun, you sometimes have to stick with it and then it'll feel fun once the amygdala has calmed down, your prefrontal cortex is taking over. 

Rhonda:

And you've got to just kind of sit through that discomfort for a little while. 

Monica:

Yup, I know it sucks, but we do. 

Rhonda:

Oh we do, we just have to sit with it and be like, okay. So you have a resource for folks that can help with this. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about that? 

Monica:

Yeah, so I have a freebie on my website called Cultivating Focus and Presence for Writers. I can't remember the exact name and it's funny because I just redid this and I like recording it because I have also have an audio version for it. Yeah, my brain's like what is it called again? It's just on cultivating focus and presence.

Rhonda:

Love it.

Monica: 

So it's really fun way to just get some ideas on how to get yourself to the page and stay there and You know having a bit more intention around it. 

Rhonda:

Mm-hmm. I love that Okay, so I'll put a link to that in the show notes because I think you know, focus, focus is a precondition, right? Like you're not able to enjoy that sense of creative flow unless you can focus. So focus and presence when it comes to writing really are pretty much everything. So thanks so much for that. And I will link to it in the comments and thanks for being with me today. I really enjoyed this conversation. 

Monica:

Thank you, Rhonda.

Outro:

Thanks so much for hanging out with me today and for listening all the way to the end. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. While you're here, I would really appreciate it if you'd consider leaving a rating and review of the show. You can do that in whatever app you're using to listen to the show right now, and it just takes a few minutes. 

Your ratings and reviews tell the podcast algorithm gods that yes, this is a great show, definitely recommend it to other writers. And that will help us reach new listeners who might need a boost in their writing lives today as well. So please take a moment and leave a review. I'd really appreciate it. And I promise to read every single one. Thank you so much.