10 Ways to Bring Joy Back Into Your Writing Life
Stepping Across the Desert (Book)
Intro:
Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome to The Resilient Writers Radio Show. I'm your host, Rhonda Douglas. And this is the podcast for writers who want to create and sustain a writing life they love.
Because let's face it, the writing life has its ups and downs, and we want to not just write, but also to be able to enjoy the process so that we'll spend more time with our butt-in-chair getting those words on the page.
This podcast is for writers who love books and everything that goes into the making of them. For writers who want to learn and grow in their craft and improve their writing skills. Writers who want to finish their books and get them out into the world so their ideal readers can enjoy them. Writers who want to spend more time in that flow state.
Writers who want to connect with other writers to celebrate and be in community, in this crazy roller coaster ride, we call the writing life. We are resilient writers. We're writing for the rest of our lives and we're having a good time doing it. So welcome, Writer. I'm so glad you're here. Let's jump right into today's show.
Rhonda:
Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome back to another episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. Today we're going to talk about the fact that it doesn't seem to get easier no matter how many books you have out. And don't worry, this isn't all boohoo very sad. But I'm excited because I've got Kat Caldwell with me today, you probably know her from the Pencils&Lipstick Podcast.
Kat believes everyone has a story worth telling and she's passionate about helping those who want to write their story get the tools and support they need. After almost 10 years of pursuing the writing industry, Kat knows it takes more than just typing out a book to be a successful writer. And as an author, she decided to pursue the indie author route and published her historical romance, Stepping Across the Desert in 2017, and a magical realism novel, An Audience with the King in 2019 and a contemporary women's lit, Coffee Stains in 2021. And she also has the podcast Pencils&Lipstick, which she started in 2019, as well as a Creative Writing Community and the Writing Sprints Membership. And if she's not hanging out with the writing community, you can find her doing some podcast interviews or volunteering with her local church, always with a cup of cold brew nearby. Kat, what's up?
Kat:
Hi, thanks for having me. It's good to talk to you again.
Rhonda:
Great to see you. Yeah. Love that we have the cold brew and the coffee in common. I feel like coffee is my life. I don't think anything happens without coffee.
Kat:
I know. My daughter is like, I will never drink coffee. I don't want to be addicted. I was like, you're missing out.
Rhonda:
Totally missing out. We'll take it. Almost pumpkin spice season. I'm ready. I'm ready.
So Kat, you've been doing this now for a while, like over a decade. And by this, I mean writing. You've been writing. Yeah. Tell us a little about your writing journey. Like when did you first start writing and when did you quote unquote start taking it seriously?
Kat:
Yeah, the seriously part, right? I discovered writing when I was young. I think like a lot of us, I really enjoyed writing stories and I was actually really asthmatic as a kid, but lived on a farm with lots of cats and dogs and horses. It was a horse farm, but we still had and we actually had tobacco. Like this was a long time ago.
Rhonda:
Wow. That's a like, that's a farm. That's a real farm.
Kat:
It was a weird eclectic farm, right? But so I actually read a lot as a kid because I couldn't be out while we were bailing and I started rewriting endings. Like I would reenact them before I could really write, I would reenact a different ending or like the continuation of the story, you know. But I think my story, my love of story has always been there. I've always loved movies, you know, I just, but, you know, I tried to pursue writing in college, but couldn't quite grasp what that would entail. Like what kind of degree is that?
Rhonda:
What career is that exactly?
Kat:
And my mother was like, no like, okay, so what can I do? So I had a fallback degree that I've never used, you know, when I started taking it seriously. I mean, I've, wrote a book when I was young. Of course, I will never bring that out.
Rhonda:
Yeah, you die. They're gonna put that in the coffin and bury it with you.
Kat:
Yeah, there are like a few copies out there in the world. I do have one fan that once wrote to me, I was like, Are you this person? I really like this book. I was like.
Rhonda:
Oh God, love that.
Kat:
I bless you. Cause I had no idea what I was doing. Right. Um, so yeah, I mean I was 19 and I was like, I, I remember telling a very ex ex boyfriend, uh, decades ago, like I will, my book will be in, a bookstore one day and he was like, okay, you know, whatever that has yet to come true. We will see, we will see about that. The indie authorship is a bit, you know.
Rhonda:
No brick and mortar. Yeah, for sure.
Kat:
I got really serious when I was pregnant with my third and thought, you know, I'm at home. How hard could it be to write a novel?
Rhonda:
Especially while raising three kids. No problem.
Kat:
It was weird because I had one on my laptop, you know, whatever thumb drive, I guess, that I had written when I was pregnant with the first one. But you know how you get that gut feeling like something's not right. Like it's not, it's not that it's not good enough. You know, there's a difference I think with the imposter syndrome, but like if you're, if you love a story, you know, when something's not how you want to.
Rhonda:
You have an instinct. Oh, there's something off here. The middle is sagging. The stakes aren't high enough. Nothing really comes to a conclusion. I don't close off my character. Whatever it is you have like a little niggle.
Kat:
Yes. And I didn't even know those words. I was like, I don't know. So I started writing another one, which turned out to be Stepping Across the Desert. And I think that's when I really got serious. That was like 2013. It took me years. Realized I didn't know what I didn't know.
Rhonda:
Right.
Kat:
I couldn't believe I hadn't been studying. Like, oh, you could study the story. Like that's a thing. I had no idea. I mean, I was living in France, so I had been gone for a decade from the States and found forums. Remember those?
Rhonda:
Yes, back in the day. Yeah.
Kat:
You know, the writers I just forums realized that there was a lot I didn't know about it. But I also knew that I had an instinct for it. And maybe if I could mesh those together. And I'm still trying to mesh those together I think. Learning and instinct and love a story.
Rhonda:
Right. Yeah. So you've now got four books out?
Kat:
So I have the three you just mentioned and then I have two coming out in the fall.
Rhonda:
Two are coming? Wow.
Kat:
I’d just say, you know, you're an indie author you get to do whatever you want.
Rhonda:
Totally. Two are coming out. I love it. So did the next book get easier? Like you finish Stepping Across the Desert, and then you decide, OK, I did historical fiction. Now I'm going to do magical realism.
Kat:
You know what I decided? I actually got really nervous. I don't know if you have ever finished your project and been like, I don't think I have any other ideas or creative.
Rhonda:
Yes, I have that experience. I finished a book of poetry, a manuscript, and I'm like, I am never going to write another poem ever again. And that lasts for like six months or so.
Kat:
Yes. Yes. It's like I always get that. You know, I got it then I was like, and I didn't understand that I probably should have just kept in the same genre. I didn't understand that. I've always bucked the system anyway. That's like my, which for better and worse, right? So An Audience with the King started out as a short story because I literally had no idea what I was doing. It technically didn't do this on purpose. I didn't know what I was doing. OK, but it basically follows the myth form.
Because I was studying psychology at the time and basically whatever you do in your life sort of filters into your writing, right? So it's a myth travel form, but instead of a hero, it's a heroine. She picks up travelers along the way. Like these innate stories, these ancient forms of stories that I think are part of our very being. And they can pop up even when you don't know what it is. So that one, you know.
It was after quite a few months of really being desperate to think like, am I never gonna write again? I have nothing to write. And it wasn't, like that one wasn't so hard, but it wasn't, it isn't my best seller and it's not necessarily something that people really are drawn to. Cause it's not a retelling, it's just following that form.
Coffee Stains was the one that I had on my computer for a decade. And that was so difficult to figure out. What, what, what was I doing?
Rhonda:
Right. We think, okay, now I've written a novel. Now I can do another novel, but we don't understand that every novel is its own beast, its own needs, its own structure. Like it's its own freakin thing. You don't just start knocking out one after the other. Some people you, know.
Kat:
There are, there are those people. I think that I've been telling anyone who will listen to me that it's like, we listen to all, we hear about all the unicorns in this industry, you know, and they're great. I love hearing a unicorn story, but the majority of us are not unicorns and we will just struggle constantly. Especially if you're writing standalones. Like if you're a completely different genre of poetry now, it's going to be different. It's like a new beast.
Rhonda:
Yeah, absolutely. Or even like I mostly write in the lyric and narrative tradition and just writing in a different theme is a different thing, you know? And definitely, you know, writing the short story versus writing the novel, putting a book, it's, oh my God. And it's, I think we do like when you're first writing your first book, your brain looks for evidence that you can finish it. Right? And it doesn't find any, it's like, you've never finished a book before. Are you sure you can do this? You know, and so you're constantly dealing with that. Now, you know, you can finish a book length project, but that's different from that feeling of like, I totally know what I'm doing with this new thing.
Kat:
Yeah.
Rhonda:
And expecting it to be easy is what trips us up.
Kat:
Yeah, expecting that it's gonna be easier that you know what comes next. I mean, think that's where it does come, for me at least, it came down to trying to figure out what I didn't know, like what was tripping me up. And I love psychology and I love people, but I realized that that wasn't necessarily enough for storytelling and so you know doing a deep dive into character arcs and character development and understanding.
I do like writing lyrical nonfiction as well and that is totally different in understanding the difference where you need to have the wrap up in a novel, a lyrical nonfiction. You might not have to, you can sort of let it float. Which I love.
Rhonda:
Just echo out, yeah. True. So what are the things that you do? So we've just, we're basically agreeing it doesn't get easier, but here we are still doing it. So despite the fact that it doesn't get easier, what are the things that you explore or put into place in your own writing life to keep you going?
Kat:
So a couple of things, I changed the way, I didn't change the way that I read. I know some people like to read, digging into how a writer did something. I think reading should still, for me, it has to be something that's just an escape. But I do, but I think it's inevitable though that you start looking at it in a different way. But more than anything, I started looking at movies that are good stories. I think A, it takes two hours. You can get it done, right? And started to realize like, why things were happening. And I know when we're experimenting with theme and with writing, especially in our short stories and nonfiction, we're trying to push the boundaries of those. And so to understand that if you're writing a genre novel that you want, you know, in the airport bookstore or something, or to kind of hit the bestseller, you can push the boundaries, but you still need those ancient storytelling hooks that are just part of us. It's that feeling you get when the movie or the book ends and you're satisfied. What is that?
Even if you're mad, you know, like my oldest really liked the Avenger movies and so we watched all of them and they're actually, you know, we love to hate on non-literary things, right? But they do follow sort of that.
Rhonda:
Not at all. Like I'm not, I'm I, they are my airplane movies. Are we surprised that you've watched all the, yes, I have. Like when I'm on an airplane, I'm like, awesome. Bring me some iron man. Bring me some Wolverine. I just saw Deadpool and Wolverine. It was a hoot.
Kat:
Was it good, yeah? I need to see it. But also, it's very easy to see the character arc, right? Like it's really easy to see why you like it. If, if, you start. So I mean, Avengers have been out forever. So whatever, if you haven't seen it too bad. The fact that my oldest was really mad that Iron Man was the one that ultimately sacrificed himself, right? Like that is an ancient mythological storytelling, you know, trope.
And because I had been looking into like, what do we love about story so much? I said, I told her, I think he had to be the one because he had the most to lose and he has had the biggest arc and has changed the most and has learned what love is and love's ultimate sacrifice is sacrificing yourself. Like that is ancient human evolution, right? And so to like look back on the last five years of how I've been just trying to see what people are doing with their storytelling, especially
Like Guy Ritchie is an amazing storyteller. You look at all their specific people's movies and just like, what are they trying to tell subtly or explicitly? That was a huge change I think I made that was just very, that has impacted maybe not the way that I, right? I hope it has, but maybe the way that I understand the story.
Rhonda:
Right. Which is huge, right? Going into a project, understanding what's going on behind the scenes in a story and why we're so compelled and why certain patterns of story hit us in certain ways. Yeah. So is there anything else that you do on a regular basis, a daily basis or weekly basis that makes your writing life feel fulfilling to you? No matter what you're working on or, you know?
Kat:
Yeah, I mean, I think if you're a novelist, like you said, that's a huge project, right? I mean, I love writing novels, but they're a lot. I think they take a lot of work, a lot of energy, and sometimes you're just not feeling it. So in the last probably a year or so, I have been focusing a lot on short stories, and I say a lot. It's not like it's every day. I do try to write maybe a paragraph or so.
I like flash fiction. I think it's an amazing way to try to get that subtlety, you know, to try to and to not feel like you have to put it into the novel. There's something about our attitude of like every word that goes into the novel kind of has to count. Do you ever feel like that?
Rhonda:
Like every single word I write has to end up published at some point. And that's just not true. It's not true. It's not true for the novel. So many words that you write for the novel will not be published in the novel, but also it's not true in your writing life. Like you're going to write a lot of things that just stay on your computer or stay in your notebook. And their job was not to reach a reader. Their job was for you to become the writer that you are to publish the book that you published. You know?
Kat:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I listened to a photographer talk about that, like his perfectionism and like not every picture I take needs to be published. I was like, not every word we write needs to be published, you know? And I remembered that before I had even considered myself a writer, I was living in Spain and everywhere I would go, I had a notebook and I would write anything, a couple sentences. What the architecture looked like, what I might imagine somebody having lived in this ancient building before, whatever it was, the shadows that sat in, just sort of immersed myself in writing. And so I've been trying to go back to that. I think life and children get in the way and you forget the intelligence you had as a young person, right?
So I really encourage people to write flash fiction, whatever you see, know, whatever's kooky or interesting out in the world, just sort of write about it. It doesn't have to go anywhere. I really like short stories because you can focus on one character arc, you know. Has to have somewhat of an ending even if it's a little bit open, you know, and blooms out. But there are probably every month I sit down and try to write a 1200 word story and I'll get all nervous about like, what am I gonna write about? But again, it doesn't have to be published. It doesn't have to be any good. There's a couple different contests that I do, but I also very much am not opposed to writing and tossing. I like Bended Loyalty, which comes out in September. Um, I threw it completely away at 60,000 words because I knew it was wrong.
Rhonda:
Wow. That takes a lot. That takes a lot to look at 60,000 words and go, nope.
Kat:
Yeah. But you know, the story was still there. And so what, what that taught me was like, you know, we measure like everything by words. It's like, I wrote 500 words. I wrote 5,000 words, whatever. But if they're not good or they're not what you want, they're not conveying the story right. They don't count. But I knew who my character was by then. So when I restarted, it actually was easier.
Rhonda:
Right. Because you knew your character and you knew your story at that point. Right. That's not the story, but this new start, I've got the story now. So it goes a little quicker. Yeah. Good stuff.
So, Kat, you have a resource to share with us about basically about having joy in your writing life. And I'm really big on this. Like, I just think the brain, if you're constantly telling yourself it's so hard, it's so difficult, your brain is never going to want you to sit down at your writing desk. Right. Because the brain is, it's a survive. It's at its base. It's like just trying to get us to survive. So anything that's threatening, it's like, we're not doing that. You feel that I would like, no, no. So I think joy is actually super important, not just for the pure joy of it, like the enjoyment of it and yay, you're having a good time, but because otherwise you won't want to do it. You know, like.
So what are some of the ways, like let's just, I know you've got a resource that's like 10 Ways to Bring Joy Back in your Writing Life, but can you just give us one or two as kind of a teaser of what's in there?
Kat:
I think first you should write what you like, even if you know you're in your 40s or 50s or 60s, if you like Iron Man. I really want to throw away this idea that everything has to be the ivory tower literary, which I love, like half of my shelf is it. I super admire those people, those writers. But if that's not what the stories are in you, it's okay. so I just, I really want to push whatever story you have, however it is contextualize in your head to write it. It's probably really entertaining and great and we all need it. You know, it doesn't have to be, I don't think it has to be life changing to be impactful.
So write what you love, what you really love. I mean, I don't think Stan Lee regrets. I don't think he regrets anything he wrote.
Rhonda:
I think that's important because I often will talk to, I'm just going to name this in particular, but folks will come to me working on a first novel and they're secretly working on a romance because they feel like they shouldn't be writing romance and people judge romance, that romance is silly. And it's so hard to get them to finish the book because they're judging themselves so hard for loving this thing that they love. Like let yourself love the thing that you love. Oh, I love that. That's great.
Kat:
I think romance gets a bad rap and so does sci-fi, you know, I admit I used to be very, you know, judgmental in certain genres, but romance doesn't have to be erotic, erotica. know, there can be a story there. There's tons of stories. Like Judith McNaught is one of the best romance writers ever. She writes amazing stories. Write what you love and love whatever, however it is written in your book. Like that is a basic human need. We love those stories. How do people love each other, right?
I also encourage people I, some writers, some of my clients are like bristle at this right? Whatever scene you woke up with like you just sort of got inspired. Maybe saw somebody at the coffee shop or whatever and “Oh what if I put my characters here? Write it. Don't don't make a note and wait until you get there. Write the scene because that will help you see and feel that joy and feel accomplished and you've no idea, especially if it's your first few books, if that scene actually might need to be next, you know, right.
Rhonda:
I think I feel like there's a lot of there's like these these rules that we internalize about writing a book. And one of them that people often internalizing is I must write my book in chronological order. That's not a thing. You get to write your book however you want to write your book. And if you wake up this morning and you want to write like a scene that happens in the middle of act two, do it. Do it. Yeah.
Kat:
Because you'll actually be able to get to that so much easier because you'll see the transitions. And even if I mean, I've written so many bad transitions or I've come back and edited and been like, oh, there is no transition here. Like what? You know, so to understand, like we still, I still do this. I'm working on editing a book now. I'm like what just, how did we get here?
Rhonda:
Wait a minute. Yeah.
Kat:
But it's easier at that point, you know to know. I know two scenes I need to fit together and how we're, how we're doing it.
Rhonda:
Yeah. I mean, just write the bridge and you're good. You know, but you're good. Yeah. But it's way better than sitting there, like forcing yourself to like, got to the next scene. I've got to write the next scene. No, right. The scene that's in front of you. Yeah.
Kat:
And don't be afraid to toss.
Rhonda:
And toss it if you need to love that. So, um, I mean, I don't know if I'd have the wherewithal to toss 60,000 words like you did. I hope I would. I hope I would be that brave because I think it's a level of bravery that speaks to a commitment to craft and improving as a writer. So I'd like to think I would be that brave. The 60,000 words is a lot of words.
Kat:
Well, and if you're a better editor than I am, I mean, we all have our strengths, right? So, um, I know if I know the story, I can write it. So maybe you're a better editor, maybe somebody else could. I'm very poor at organization. So to take 60,000 and to rearrange would have been a mess. So, I mean, definitely don't just go throwing things away, understanding your strengths and what you're willing to do.
But I'm also really big on publishing the story that you're proud of. Don't read reviews. Which is terrible. I think people are very much on their high horse. They're soap boxes, they're ivory towers, whatever it is. I think people are very critical of writers, very critical of stories.
Rhonda:
Which is hilarious because it's like, I'm sorry, honey, you write it. You know what I mean? You don't devote years of your life to this one book. Like you do it.
Kat:
I know it's really unfair. It's really unfair. I mean, I'm not just talking about not reading your reviews. Like don't read other people's reviews or a little, did you read A Little Life? Like if you read those reviews, it's literally 50 50, literally 50 50. So if you want to realize that reviews like don't, they do and don't matter. Right? So write the book that you are proud of, that you love, that you know is the story because then when it comes down to the 50 50 split of this book was great. This book was awful. You go, well, it just wasn't for you, was it?
Rhonda:
Right. You're not my reader. Yeah, I had discovered I had linked somebody to my book on my short story collection on Amazon. And after I sent him the link, he was in Spain and so he needed to order it. And after I sent him the link, I realized I'd never gone on to Amazon.com and looked at, you know, if there had been any reviews. And so there was this one star review from this poor woman who clearly thought she was ordering a different review. Wow, awful or something like this. And these are like award-winning short stories. They've been published. There's you know, and but it's in there among the glowing reviews of oh my God, this was so beautiful. And you know, and at that point I'd had readers reach out to me, you know, and I'd had that experience. But I think if like she had been the only review that I'd ever gotten, I would have been devastated.
You know now I can go. Oh clearly it wasn't for you. Whatever like obviously the book is called Welcome to the Circus. I think maybe she thought it was an instruction manual. I don't it's like.
Kat:
I thought I would get in the circus.
Rhonda:
Why is there no like how to get into the circus?
Kat:
I still don't know how to do the trapeze. I don't understand.
Rhonda:
So but if I hadn't had the amazing experience of connecting with readers before that I think that really would have like it really would have stung and hurt. And as it is, I just find it hilarious. Right. And you kind of have to get to that place with reviews where they don't like they matter to the extent that they keep you going. But when they begin to kind of get in your head, they just don't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Kat:
Exactly.
Rhonda:
You created something out of freaking nothing.
Kat:
Yeah. And again, you go do it.
Rhonda:
Yeah, exactly. And that person giving you the two stars on Amazon did not. So it's amazing.
Kat:
But they feel entitled to give their opinion. I mean, there are Pulitzer Prize winning books that have a three point eight on Goodreads. Yeah. You go, OK, guys.
Rhonda:
Yeah. You don't know. Everybody calmed down. Everybody calmed down.
Kat:
Yes. Yes. You know, I just think it is one of those of kind of unfair things. I was also thinking. I have three dollars. So there was a lot of Taylor Swift in the last couple of years.
Rhonda:
Oh, yeah.
Kat:
But, she's very prolific. And I think any writer is actually quite prolific. We write a lot, whether it gets out into the world or not. Right. So we're writing our morning pages. We're writing poetry. We're writing whatever, even if it doesn't get published. But she's prolific and then publishes and you go, well, that song was terrible. But then you think, well, do they all have to be amazing? Yeah, I mean, there is a certain courage to putting it out there and being like, I like it.
Rhonda:
Yeah. And also the next one. Do you know what I mean? Like it took me writing that one to write the next one. Yeah. Right. That's a good point. That is such a good point.
Kat:
Yeah. Yeah. I write, I put out this resource. I have a couple more things in there of things that people can try links that people can go to and because especially if you're stuck on whatever project you're to realize again that you're a writer because there's something innate and you have a beautiful way of seeing the world that's different from everyone else. And however that gets out, short stories, poetry, flash fiction, novels, morning pages, writing a blog, something, you know, whatever it is. I mean, we have something to say.
Rhonda:
That's so great. I'm going to link to that in the show notes so people can find that. And it's super important. Like I think there's nothing when it comes down to it, there's nothing more important than finding the joy in your writing life. So I'm glad we could end this on a high note after complaining about how it did.
Kat:
Well, no one ever said it would be easy, right?
Rhonda:
Right. I promised easy. Nobody promised easy.
Kat:
Nobody did.
Rhonda:
Thanks so much for being with me today, Kat. It was really great to talk to you.
Kat:
Thanks for having me.
Outro:
Thanks so much for hanging out with me today and for listening all the way to the end. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. While you're here, I would really appreciate it if you'd consider leaving a rating and review of the show. You can do that in whatever app you're using to listen to the show right now, and it just takes a few minutes.
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