Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome to the Resilient Writers Radio Show. I'm your host, Rhonda Douglas. And this is the podcast for writers who want to create and sustain a writing life they love.
Because let's face it, the writing life has its ups and downs, and we want to not just write, but also to be able to enjoy the process so that we'll spend more time with our butt-in-chair getting those words on the page.
This podcast is for writers who love books and everything that goes into the making of them. For writers who want to learn and grow in their craft and improve their writing skills. Writers who want to finish their books and get them out into the world so their ideal readers can enjoy them. Writers who want to spend more time in that flow state.
Writers who want to connect with other writers to celebrate and be in community in this crazy roller coaster ride, we call the writing life. We are resilient writers. We're writing for the rest of our lives and we're having a good time doing it. So welcome writer. I'm so glad you're here. Let's jump right into today's show.
Rhonda:
Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome back to another episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. This is a first, we're doing a panel interview today with folks from the Gemini Writers Studio. So I have Eva Fox Mate with me. Maté?
Eva:
It's actually mate.
Rhonda:
It's mate, okay, great. It's my Argentinian friends that have me going mate. Yes. Okay, Eva Fox Mate, Julie Cameron, and Romy Summer from Gemini Writers Studios. So let me just give a little intro.
Romy is the author of seven contemporary romance novels published by HarperCollins London, and she's also indie published a further eight books under her own name and a pseudonym. She was the first South African to be nominated for the prestigious RWA Rita Award in 2016. And very, very active in the organization of romance writers of South Africa as their founder, in fact. So this is really great.
Julie is an accomplished dynamic, energetic author of award-winning contemporary romance novels and screenplays. with diverse experience in content editing, consulting, writing, blogging, screenwriting, and self-publishing. And she has had a company called Landon Literary, where she's been a mentor and coach for published and unpublished authors.
And Eva has her first book of romance suspense coming out at the end of this month. Very exciting! She is a romance author and literary consultant based out of Denver, Colorado, and helps writers go from blank page to finished manuscript. And she has years of experience as a writing coach and editor to help both the newbie writer and the seasoned professional. So welcome. So great to have you here.
So we wanted to talk about editing. And I'm so glad we are, because literally last week, I had two folks that I'm working with who had engaged editors have different kinds of problems with the editor.
So the first one was that she thought she was getting a developmental edit, and what she got instead were lots of copy edits. And the other issue was she got lots of detailed edits, but not the editing that she'd asked the editor for. So my first question for you is, what do you think writers need to think about when they think about hiring an editor in the first place?
Romy:
Sure, yeah. My first thought was there are a couple of things. They have every right, every reason, every, you know, why not ask for a sample edit to see if what you're looking for is what that editor is presenting? Most editors will give a quick sample edit which works on both sides; it gives the editor a chance to check out the writing sample of the author.
And it gives the author a chance to check out and see if what they're hoping to get edited on their on that piece is what they're looking for that's exactly what they wanted or if no that's not quite it.
So I would absolutely suggest reaching out and requesting a sample. before you engage the editor.
Rhonda:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Maybe we should just clarify, can you talk about the difference between, you know, a developmental edit versus a copy edit versus a proofread?
Romy:
Absolutely. I think they get confused.
We always recommend, sorry. We recommend that you start with the big picture. Start with the developmental edits. There really is no point in looking at sentence structure and for typos when you're doing massive rewrites. So the very first step, and I firmly believe, and this is partially because both Julie and I do developmental and content editing. In fact, all three of us do, but we really believe that is the most important step.
Whether you're going traditional publishing or self-publishing, you need to make sure that your story, your character arcs all hold, and that they're strong and that there are plot holes. So we always recommend you start with the big picture developmental edits, and your developmental editor should be looking for POV, pacing, story structure, plot holes, character arcs, whether the characters are consistent, they look for consistencies throughout the story.
Then once you've done that, you can look at a copy or a line edit where you're getting into the nitty gritty of, is there repetition? Are the sentence lengths structured? Is there variety? Is there pacing within the scene?
And then right at the very end, you'd go for a proofread. The proofread is really only necessary if you're going the self-publishing route. In fact, the last two steps, if you're going traditional publishing, you could potentially skip because your publishing house will go through all of these steps again with you.
But if you're going self-publishing, we highly recommend a proofread. And the one codicil, which is really looking for those final misused words and typos and punctuation, is that you cannot get the same person to do every round.
That's why we have formed a Gemini Writers Studio with three of us together. Because once you read a manuscript, you've now got the picture in your head of what you think is in the story. And If the author then takes your first lot of edits, your developmental edits and rewrites the story, we still have information in our heads from the first read. And we might be seeing things on the page that aren't actually there. right, the same as the author does.
You know, as the author, you know, when you've written this book over many months, and you've done all these rewrites, you sometimes forget what you've taken up and what you put in. And so we like to have a fresh set of eyes at every stage. So ideally, whoever does your copy, it should be different from your developmental edit. And that's why we work as a team, we'll often pass work along.
Rhonda:
Mm hmm. Yeah, I love that. So I would absolutely agree that the developmental edit is kind of the crucial bit. It's also, you know, it's often the most substantive. It's where you're uncovering big issues, you know, with the manuscript.
So if you're on a tight budget, you can only afford to do one round of edits and one kind of edit. What do you think is most important for, and is it different whether you're traditionally published or you're self-published?
Julie:
I can take that. I think that, again, knowing the impact that the development edit has, that's the one that all three of us, I suspect, would recommend that you go with. And we do recognize that editing is not cheap. And we also recognize that you get what you pay for. So we would never suggest that somebody go for the cut rate editor because you're probably not going to get what you need.
So I think without question, especially given all of the programs that you can send your work through that will look for punctuation errors, that will catch basic grammar mistakes, your content or your development edit is where you're gonna get the most bang for your buck.
But as Romy said, if you are going to publish the work yourself, I believe very strongly that it is worth going ahead and hiring that copy editor or that proofreader if you are a little bit past that stage, because there is nothing that turns a reader off faster than reading a book and within the first chapter they've found 20 errors. It's just distracting and it can take away from the most phenomenal plot in the world.
So I think that you know understanding that budgets are tight, that writers don't make a million dollars right out of the chute or possibly ever, and so we understand that, but I do think that you have to really look at which direction you're planning on going and then you know how valuable is it to you to really put your best foot forward with that plot line, that story structure, and great characters. And that's something that a content editor can spot for you.
Rhonda:
Yeah, I love that. I think it's true. There's so many, you know, Pro-Writing Aid, Grammarly, AutoCrit that can kind of, you know, really support you with the grammar and punctuation side of things, catching typos and so on.
But no one can really tell you. you know, if you've got point of view slips or, you know, your character development isn't working the way you think it is, or because we just we lose touch with it. We can't see the whole – can’t see the forest for the trees.
So I'd love since you are so experienced as developmental editors, I'd love to ask, what are the sort of three most common mistakes you see authors writing when they send a manuscript to you for a developmental edit. I don't know who wants to take that one. I'd love to hear from all three of you.
Julie:
Well, I'll start. This is Julie. I think that probably one of the biggest mistakes, the deepest mistakes that I've seen, the most impactful mistake I've seen, I mean, there are some higher level things like stop using names with all the dialogue, but as from a deeper perspective, the things that I've found that take the most work for writers, you know, that I go back to the writers and say is I just couldn't connect with your character. There's not enough depth to your character. They're a little too superficial. I just need a little more depth from your characters. So for me, that's one of the biggest things because I love characters. I love character development.
For me, if you have great characters you can have a pretty weak storyline and I'll still love it because I can connect to the characters. I think that one of the most important things about a good novel is really latching on and really empathizing and sizing and sympathizing with the characters and if I can't if I don't see that in the first pass that's one of the biggest things that I go back to the writer with.
Rhonda:
That's so true, we want to love the character. We want to put it down thinking, oh, I could have spent more time with that character. Romy, how about you?
Romy:
For me, I think the biggest thing is not having strong enough character goals, particularly for beginner writers. They sort of drift into the story and the characters aren't very proactive or there's no clear stated goals. So we're not really rooting for them because we don't know what we're reaching for. We don't really know what they're, what's at stake. if they win or lose at what they're trying to do.
So for me, having a strong goal upfront, a strong, very specific goal. In the same way we say to writers, you should have smart goals for your writing career, you should have smart goals for your character. And it should be on the page as soon as possible at the start of the book. Because then the reader is invested. We wanna know, will they achieve it or won't they? So for me, that's a number one priority.
Rhonda:
Love that. Eva, what about you? What do you think?
Eva:
Well, of course, I'm going third, right? So I can say all the above. But I also think that, and this is sort of shades of both what Julie and Romy said, but I think a lot of times with a beginning author, particularly, they put so much in upfront in the book, and then there's a bunch of loose ends. you know whatever happened to this little thread whatever happened to that little thread and it's because you know they want to pack it full of so much stuff but then there's no conclusion to some of it and it's those little ravelings that never get tied back into the story woven back into the story and you see that a lot. I mean hey you know people who've published multi-times can have that happen too.
And a lot of that is just, it's part of the drafting process, right? Where you throw a lot in and you see what sticks to the wall. But I do think that a lot of times we do see just storylines that are not brought to their conclusion or suggestions of things that are never really taken and run with. So that kind of, it's gonna leave the reader unfulfilled. And it's going to leave them with more questions than they should have at the end of the book.
Romy:
To capitalize on that, I also want to carry that even a little further. A lot of times I'll get a manuscript that just doesn't get off the ground. There's nothing happening. I think a lot of especially new writers compare things to movies where, you know, the movie they're walking through. the young kid going high school and they get up and get dressed you know the hit their alarm they get dressed and you know and those are always for movies to be able to get you to visually get to know the character but in a book that's just boring we that doesn't take us anywhere doesn't give us anything.
And I think that's a common problem especially well for all writers I think because I'm struggling with that right now with my third book trying to get it off the ground. And it just doesn't, it's not going anywhere. And it's frustrating. And it's hard, you know people aren't gonna be interested in this.
Rhonda:
There's a book I love about that. It's called Hooked, by Les Edgerton. I'll put it in the show notes, it's either The Hook or Hooked. It's really great about, you know, the first part of a novel, the hook, the inciting incident and so on.
Yeah, so important because I also think expectations have changed. So if you were reading and writing in the 80s, books started off a little more slowly than they do now. You just can't get away with that because readers have changed, you know, so, expectations have changed.
Romy:
Rhonda, what you really said earlier as well about not really connecting with the characters. I think so much of that comes down to point of view. And as you said, Rhonda, books have changed. The books that I remember just recently going back and rereading a book that I loved as a, um, in my teens and twenties. And the POV was so shallow. It was almost an inertia POV.
And we don't read that today, we’re not used to that anymore. They expect this deep engrossing POV. Readers expect to put themselves in the character's shoes. And if you're still writing like the books you loved from 20 years ago, you're not going to have that same connection. So I really do believe in deepening the POV so that the reader is experiencing the story in the character's shoes is so important.
Rhonda:
I love that because it does really relate to what Julie was saying too, about making sure that your characters have depth. And so much of that is achieved through the depth of your point of view.
So, and you have a workshop coming up in September on that, right? Can you tell us a little bit about that and what people will learn?
Romy:
Correct, we have a workshop, a live workshop on Saturday, the 7th of September on writing Deep POV. So we're gonna look at what it is, techniques to put it into your own writing.
And correct me if I'm wrong, ladies, but that is at noon on, noon mountain time.
Julie:
That's right. Correct.
Rhonda:
Okay. All right. Well, you're gonna give me a link for that and I'll put it in the show notes. So folks who are interested in learning more about Deep POV can join. I might join! You know, I just find that POV is one of those things that you constantly need refreshed. The techniques and so on. I feel like every time I start a new story or a new book, I go, wait a minute now, what do I know about this? So I might join as well.
That sounds great. Sounds really great. So I'd love to talk a little bit about community because you run and foster a community of writers and what role do you think community plays in the life of a writer, right? From deciding you're going to give writing the romance novel you've always wanted to write a try, all the way through to being someone like Romy, who's published like 600 books, you know, just a lot of books. So what role does it play along the way? You know, does it play a different role at different times in the journey or is it the same? What do you think in terms of building a writing community?
Romy:
I think it's everything. I really do. And I know that Julie and Eva really agree with me. Writing is a very solitary thing, right? We know that it's just you and your computer or your pad and pencil if you're old school, your typewriter, whatever, it works for you. But it is ultimately just you and your thoughts.
And I think it's also a very tough road. It's not easy. If everybody could write a book, then everybody would be writing a book. And so there's so many little things that go into making writing very emotionally tough. And I think that, you know, first of all, we're societal animals. So we like to have people around us and I think it's just vital for that emotional support, otherwise it's so easy and you see it time and time again where people get stuck and they don't know how to get unstuck.
Sometimes, a lot of times ,that's just a matter of somebody listening to where you're at, sharing their thoughts or even just the process of you talking about it can get you unstuck. Sometimes there's just value and somebody who has. Oh yeah, I sent out 50 queries. I totally feel your pain. It takes forever. It's tedious. It's the walk that you only recognize if you've done it yourself.
And so that's what the community provides is people, like-minded people who are passionate and dedicated. And I mean, we all get lost a little bit along the way. So I think it's just, it's absolutely vital. Even if you are like, the world's biggest introvert, because really the three of us are pretty introverted when you get right down to it. It's still very important to have that support.
And one of the things that we pride ourselves on here at Gemini is that we really are about the support. We try to offer things that are affordable for people so that they can find that community without breaking the bank. I sometimes feel like as writers, we have to do it all ourselves. I have to do it myself. I can't ask for help or I'll have to give credit to that person for fixing that plot point. Or I have to do this my way because this is what I've got in my head. And sometimes I feel like writers just get really, really so into their own heads that they don't know that they can go ask for help.
There's nothing wrong with brainstorming with a community. If you get stuck, your characters are stuck in a cave and you can't get them out. Go talk to some other people and brainstorm it. There's nothing wrong with that. That's, you know, just because you're getting an idea from somebody else doesn't mean that it's not all part of your grander scheme of things. Doesn't mean you can't use it, or doesn't mean that you can't reach out for help, or can't, I have a really fun person in our group who is constantly threatening to set fire to her work all the time. I keep going, stop that, it's wonderful. It's wonderful.
So it is funny to know how you know in people's minds what they're going through and to help each other out. Misery does love company and let's face it – it's true recently there were some statistics that said if you just decide you want to write a book There's about a 4% success rate. So about 4% of people who say they want to write a book actually finish writing a book, when you publicly declare your goal and your intention, it goes up to about 50%.
But if you join a group, and you have an accountability group and people who are checking in with you, and you're checking in with them, it goes up to 65% success rate. So, you know, maximize your chances – join a group and have people keep you accountable.
Rhonda:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'd be surprised if it isn't even higher than that. You know, yeah. Also, I find that the further you get along in your journey, the more practical the help can get. So I'm part of a writing group and we're often saying, Oh, Deborah, did you hear that this publisher is looking for short fiction manuscripts, right?
Or I was talking to someone yesterday who was suggesting two different publishers I could send my new poetry manuscript out to. You know, and... We kind of were there for each other. We blurb each other's books. So it kind of gets more and more practical on the publishing level, the longer you're in the game as well. But I agree, community is absolutely everything. I don't know why anyone would wanna go this alone. It's such a hard road sometimes, absolutely.
So... What is coming up in the fall in your community? Can you give us a little bit of insight into the kinds of things that you're going to be doing? This comes out in early September, so what kinds of things are coming up in the fall for your community?
Romy:
Okay, so we have every month, we have Gem Cafe, which is our social gathering for our community. We also have an Insights Ask online session once a month, which is where we usually discuss writing craft issues.
Then, starting in the fall, we have our flagship editing course. This is a self editing course to guide you step by step over an eight month period. So it's a lengthy course. Over eight months, we will deconstruct your book, we'll take you through all the steps from reverse outlining to doing your own developmental edits to copy editing your work to understand what is involved at each step of the way. And then towards the end, we'll go through what the different types of editors are, what your next steps will be, the pros and cons of traditional and self-publishing. So it really is a full flagship course. And that is the beginning of October.
Rhonda:
Okay, wow, busy fall. And the Deep Point of View workshop on the 7th of September. So that's great. Well, thanks so much for being here with me today. And I'm so glad we got to chat about a wide range of things, editing, but also the importance of community and kind of, you know, the support that you need to stay with it over the long haul. Thanks so much for being with me.
Romy:
Thanks for having us Rhonda.
Thanks so much for hanging out with me today and for listening all the way to the end. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. While you're here, I would really appreciate it if you'd consider leaving a rating and review of the show. You can do that in whatever app you're using to listen to the show right now, and it just takes a few minutes.
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