Links Mentioned in This Episode:

• Dictation Bootcamp
• Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer's Website

The Resilient Writers Radio Show: Interview with Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer– Full Episode Transcript

Intro:

Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome to The Resilient Writers Radio Show. I'm your host, Rhonda Douglas. And this is the podcast for writers who want to create and sustain a writing life they love. 

Because let's face it, the writing life has its ups and downs, and we want to not just write, but also to be able to enjoy the process so that we'll spend more time with our butt-in-chair getting those words on the page. 

This podcast is for writers who love books and everything that goes into the making of them. For writers who want to learn and grow in their craft and improve their writing skills. Writers who want to finish their books and get them out into the world so their ideal readers can enjoy them. Writers who want to spend more time in that flow state. 

Writers who want to connect with other writers to celebrate and be in community, in this crazy roller coaster ride, we call the writing life. We are resilient writers. We're writing for the rest of our lives and we're having a good time doing it. So welcome, Writer. I'm so glad you're here. Let's jump right into today's show.

Rhonda:

Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome back to another episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. So excited to be here with you today. And I'm with my friend Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer. And if you can find out more about her over at fictioncourses.com. And she works with authors who are struggling to master the tools and knowledge of their author journey to help them become confident in writing their books. She is an author herself. Are you at 19 published books now or more?

Sarah:
I'm at 19. I'm trying to get more out, but I'm at 19 now.

Rhonda:
So great. And you may have heard her on Joanna Penn’s The Creative Penn podcast, on Jane Friedman’s blog, over at Writer’s Digest, and so on. And she has two signature programs. One is Fiction Writing: American Indians, equipping authors to write authentic stories that honor Native American history and culture. And she also does a Dictation Bootcamp for authors, which takes folks through the process of mastering dictation to help you, uh, finish your book so much sooner.

So that's what we're going to talk about today because I'm so—I'm signing up for your bootcamp. I am super interested. I've wanted to do it before and the timing just hasn't been right. So I'm super interested in this whole idea of using dictation to finish the book and, in my case, finish faster. So you've—how did you end up, like, even discovering that dictation was going to work for you, Sarah?

Sarah:
Oh, well, first of all, thank you again for having me on, Rhonda. I'm excited for this conversation and I'm so excited to have you in the bootcamp. I just—I'm just so looking forward to that.

I started looking at dictation back—I know it was before 2013, and I had heard authors—I would listen to podcasts and authors were talking about doubling their writing speed and doing dictation while they're loading groceries in their car or out taking a walk.

And I was like, that sounds fantastic. I was just really getting into fiction writing seriously. And I, like, I want this to be a lifelong career. And I knew I needed to build that sustainably. And I was like, dictation sounds like the perfect thing to have a sustainable fiction writing career, not only for speed, but for health.

I gave my first try with dictation in 2013. So I'd been thinking about it for a while. I had looked at Dragon dictation—like many authors, especially back then. It was really our only option to have a viable shot at doing dictation. Otherwise you have to hire a human transcriber, which is fantastic, but that would run you like a thousand dollars plus per manuscript. And that's just not feasible for most of us fiction authors.

Dragon was there, still pricey—an upfront investment, over $700 back when you would buy the program and load it onto your computer, CD-ROMs and all of that. I had been looking at that and I was just like, oh, I don't know if I want to make that investment because what if dictation doesn't work for me? What if I can't actually get my words of fiction out my mouth?

In 2013, I got my first smartphone, finally. I did get my first smartphone in 2013. And one of the first apps I downloaded was Dragon Anywhere. And that was—and still is—their app that, you know, you can pay a fee. I think it's like $15 a month or something. And I was like, I'm going to use this to try dictation.

And I downloaded it—just the trial version—on my phone. I never actually paid for it. I downloaded the trial version and started it, got a few sentences out, posted on my Facebook. I was like, this could be epic. You know, I'm dictating—and it was, it was an epic failure because I could not stick with it. I could not get my words of fiction out.

I was having trouble with the app. I was having trouble with my phone—technical glitches. And I was like, you know, my brain just doesn't work that way. It's not worth pushing through. I just can't do this. Then I would hear someone else on a podcast—and that may be your listeners right now. It's like, yes, I've heard about authors dictating; like, somebody just tell me how to do it already.

So I would hear authors and I kept coming back to it and I kept failing. I could try different ways, try different tools, and just ultimately I just could not make that transition from typing my words to speaking them.

In 2020, I decided to sit myself down and I was like, you know what? I trained myself to type. Like, I didn't know how to type. I could not type fast. Like, I—and I didn't do it with just doing it created for my brain. I had a story that I had handwritten. I learned to type when I was 14. That's when I started—on an old Canon electric typewriter. So the kind that you can see that sentence before it actually hit the end and then it printed on the page. You better fix your typos.

Rhonda:
Liquid Paper over the typos. Yes. Yes.

Sarah:
Little—little White-Out—and that's, that's what—so you better try to—and then we’d get to the end and it would start printing. I was like, no, I didn't fix my typo. I know I had a typo there, and then here comes the White-Out. That's how I learned to type, but I learned typing from a story I had already handwritten. So that's how I learned to type—gradually got better and faster, but I still, you know, I'm still not a great typer. I have just never hit those speeds that I wanted to with typing.

So with dictation, I was like, I need to sit myself down and really learn how to dictate and practice it and train myself to do it. And I think that's the biggest thing for authors wanting to make that transition from typing to speaking their stories—is you need to give yourself permission to be messy and to go through the messy learning process to do it.

That's what I did. And I started dictating just brain dumps in the mornings, kind of like morning pages. I would just get my words out. I practiced speaking my punctuation. I was just—I was not using Dragon. So just to clarify for anyone who's still like, ooh, have to make that big Dragon investment: you do not. I never used Dragon beyond that test version on my phone.

So I did some practice, and one day I was walking into the kitchen. I had to head out for an appointment, but I had dirty dishes in the sink. So I was like, well, I got to get these dishes done before I head out for my appointment. As soon as I crossed the threshold into the kitchen, just—this entire scene downloaded into my brain. It was a backstory scene for the novel that I was working on. And every author knows—like, you've got 20 minutes.

You don't have time to sit down and write this story. And because I was an experienced author at that point—I had multiple published books—I knew it would take me about an hour. Like, I could just feel—like, I could just sense that with all of the ideas. And it was perfect.

I had the opening scene. I had how I was going to end it. I had dialogue—like, it was all there. And I was like, oh no. I only have 20 minutes. I've got dishes in the sink. I could run back—I could just ignore it and just like, okay, I'm going to do these and leave, or I could run to my computer, type out some notes as best I can to capture it. And we all know, like, it's just—it's not going to be the same. It's not going to be the same.

And then I thought of my third option. I was like, you know, I've been practicing this dictation thing. I had not actually written a scene of fiction yet, but I was like, I've been practicing this. I have—I have a record app on my phone. Let's just go for it.

And so I plugged in my earbuds—my wired earbuds—and I had the little mic hanging on them, which I don't recommend really for authors because it does rub on your clothes and it can interfere with the audio. But you start with what you have. And that's what I really encourage authors to do is get started with what you have. Let it be messy.

So I plugged in my earbuds, started my record app, dropped my phone in my pocket, started doing the dishes while I was speaking that scene of fiction. And 20 minutes—15, 20 minutes—later, I finished. I finished the scene about the same time, headed out the door, came back, had my app transcribe those words. And, Rhonda, I had written almost 1,500 words of fiction that would have been completely lost.

It's speed. It is speed—that is a factor—but it's also capturing those scenes. That scene would have been lost. Like, I would not have gotten that written at all. I would have come home; it would have been a complete blank. Even if I had a few notes, I would have struggled to recapture that scene that I had laid out so perfectly—and I got the dishes done at the same time, and it was just, it was like the perfect sense of accomplishment.

So I did have to do cleanup on that. It came out to be just under 1,300 words with it, and we can talk about the whole, you know, making a mess with dictation and what all's involved in cleanup and all of those things. But the core of it was there.

And I knew at that point, whatever I have to do to fully make dictation my primary go-to for writing, I need to do—and that's what I did. I have now—I, after that, I did not type. I went on to dictate that entire novel, and I've dictated 14 books. So I do have 19 published, and 11 of those I wrote by dictation, and I've written three more by dictation that are upcoming for publication. So it's—it's been—it has changed my writing life, doubled my writing speed.

Rhonda:
Wow. So when—okay, so you mentioned the dishes, but, like, when would you otherwise be dictating? Like, when does it work best to be dictating? Because if I'm writing—and I love to write by hand—I wrote a novel by hand and then I read it into Zoom and then had it transcribed. So it's like a, you know, it's not quite dictation.

Yeah. But, like, I felt like, okay, I can't be doing anything else. I can't multitask through this. I have to, like, just focus. So—but you're able to multitask. When are you dictating?

Sarah:
Yeah. So don't—don't think too highly of me because I typically don't multitask whenever I'm doing my dictation. As it is a part of my regular life now—my writing life—I do it in the mornings. Just when I would always type. I would get my Neo—you know, the old AlphaSmart Neo 2. That's what I was last typing on back in 2020.

And I would sit down in my big comfy chair in the living room and I'd boom, boom, boom—spend my hour and get my typing words. I would get about 1,500 words. Then when I shifted to dictation and I was getting in my full writing hour—which, full transparency, I'm not getting my full writing hour in currently, but I am going to get back to that.

But I would sit down with my phone. I dictated all on my phone. I've never dictated fiction really on my computer other than just, like, some editing and all. But I dictate just sitting there in my chair. So I go through my morning routine and near the end of it is where I have my fiction writing plugged in.

So I would just start my dictation app function—whatever I'm using—and start speaking my words. So I would do my hour and then get to my computer and do my cleanup on my computer. And I was done for the day. So that's typically—and now I'm doing my five minutes of fiction each morning. So I get that done and it's just five minutes, but I am going to get back to my hour.

But that's typically—I do like to—you know, as far as where people like to dictate and how they like to do it—some authors do like to go for a walk, and studies show that, you know, walking gets the creative juices going. That's a lot of really good brainstorming time. That's how a lot of authors start dictating—because they are out on their walk and they're like, oh, here's all these ideas. I've got to run back to my computer and capture them, right?

With dictation, they're able to do it while they're walking. So they're getting their steps in, they're being out in nature sometimes, and they're able to get their words in. So a lot of authors do that. And some authors do—they do it while they're multitasking. I have a lot of moms in my audience. So in between their kids—while they're, you know, they give their kids their chores to do—and while they've got that 10-minute slot there, they'll get their words in and then, you know, go back to their kids. So they're able to spend time with their family while they're still getting their writing done. And then I have a lot of dedicated authors that—yes, they just lock theirself in their office still and do their dictating.

So it's not that you have to be, you know, using it for multitasking or while you're out and about—it's just now replacing that being hunched over the computer and doing your typing. You can still totally dictate at your desk. If you have a specific writing routine that—you know, hey, I like my candle, I have my cup of tea, I like to just sit at my desk and have my research books and do my writing—you can still do that. You're just now speaking your words instead of typing them.

And honestly, one of my favorite ways of dictating is just lying in bed or on the couch because I just feel very, totally relaxed. And I think it kind of puts me in that—almost like I'm drifting off to sleep and my imagination is really, really activating, and I'm kind of, like, dreaming up stories and all. So that's the fastest way that I will get words down, actually, is when I'm just lying in bed or on the couch relaxing and doing dictating.

Rhonda:
Wow. Love that. Like, I—you know, there are folks who have chronic illness. They can't, you know, sit at a desk for long periods of time. You know, we've all had that experience. Like, I'm planning this weekend to do what I call a page-booster weekend where I, like, spend as much of the weekend writing as possible. And I'm going to end up with numb butt, you know?

So it's a thing. Yeah, for sure. What are the—so for most things, I'm this person—I'm like, oh, that's a good idea. I'll just start doing it. And then I would start doing it and it wouldn't work. So what are the three biggest mistakes that people make when they first start trying to dictate?

Sarah:
Yeah, I think nonfiction is a bit easier. For fiction authors, you get things set up, you get your tech working, and they activate their dictation function and their brain just freezes up. And a part of that is getting into a little bit of neuroscience, but I don't—I don't go really into that because that's definitely not my specialty.

But our brains want to protect our energy, and so, you know, fight or flight is like we've got to have survival, and whenever you're taking on a new skill like this—if it's challenging, if it's really draining a lot of your energy—your brain will just freeze up because it's like, oh no, that's too hard. That's going to take up too much energy. So it's not going to, you know, want to expend that energy.

And so one of the biggest mistakes authors make—and I made the same thing; that's what I said when I was trying to dictate—is just expecting to be able to do it instantly and just go from, okay, I type my stories, so now naturally I can speak my stories. And that's—that's where I'm like, authors—I really encourage them to not try dictation until they've invested into some training.

And whether you come into my bootcamp and get that training—like, however it is—just be sure and do that training first, because if you don't and you just start, you'll be like me and start building up that mental resistance. And authors—so many have had this already who come into the bootcamp—they're like, I tried and failed; like, my brain just doesn't work that way.

And so making that mistake of thinking it's just some people are wired for it and some people aren't—like some people can do math, some people can't, you know. It's like some people can write fiction, some people can't. And it really is a skill to learn. So that's the number one.

Number two, letting the tech hold them back—the fear of technology and thinking, oh, I'm just not tech-savvy. This sounds like a lot of steps. This sounds like I've got to—or I've got to be a tech guru to speak my words and then get them transcribed and get them over into Scrivener or Atticus, whatever it is that you write in. That just sounds like a lot of steps and that's overwhelming and I'm just not tech-savvy enough to do it.

And what I encourage authors is—that's what we do in the bootcamp—is we really just take your first steps in setting up your tech, just getting something to work and getting started with dictation. Again, totally fine to be messy with it and to try different tools, but you don't have to be a tech guru to do it.

I have so many authors who are in their senior years who come into my bootcamp. I have one—she even came around to—she wants to dictate on her smartwatch. So she dictates on her smartwatch. And I'm just like—

Rhonda:
Wow. She's ahead of me. I can't even imagine that. That's amazing.

Sarah:
I can't—I can't do it. So my students pass me up. But you don't have to have that tech. You can get started with just the computer or the phone that you have right now. So we keep it really simple. And then you can go into the stratosphere with it, but you can just keep it really simple for now with getting started with dictation. So—tech overwhelm—don't let that hold you back because there are some really simple solutions that you can do to dictate your fiction without having to set up multiple, multiple steps.

The third one—let's see, I was trying to think because I have so many authors. So I would say the fear of the mess would probably be the third. And this was one of my big objections after I finally wrote that first scene of fiction—that backstory scene—it took me almost 30 minutes to clean it up. So I wrote it in, like, 20 minutes, but it took me 20 or 30 minutes to clean it up.

And I'm like, ooh, I'm kind of at the same speed. And that's what you were saying, Rhonda—like, I want to be able to write faster. And I'm like, this is not producing more words. Like, is it worth it? Like, I'm still doing about 1,500 words an hour. So is dictation worth it? And so that was a huge mistake for me to even think that, and thankfully I pushed past it, but a lot of authors when they first dictate—they're like, this is such a mess. It's not worth it. It's faster just for me to type initially.

And what I let authors know is: yes, it took me about 50/50 on my cleanup, but because of the processes that I've developed and what I teach and all, there are several things that you can do to make your drafts come out cleaner. And now I'm about 90/10.

So if I dictate for 50–55 minutes, it only takes me five or ten minutes to clean up. And I know everyone's all different places with AI, but so many of my authors are using AI to do their cleanup now. So it's even—even faster. And that's something I'm going to be exploring, but you don't—you don't have to use it in any way or form.

I still do my cleanup manually, and it goes so much faster. So that would be the third mistake—thinking that it's just too big of a mess, and you have that fear stopping you from doing dictation. Know that it will get better with time and practice.

Rhonda:
Okay. So tell me about the bootcamp. I'm going to join—I'm going to invite, you know, everyone to join me in joining—and we can all learn it together. I, I—I'm like, I'm a little apprehensive. I'm a little nervous. Like, am I going to be able to do this? So tell me what kinds of things we're going to cover in the bootcamp.

Sarah:
We're starting from the very beginning. This is baby steps. Sometimes it's so beginner—like, I had to refund one author because she was like, this is too basic. Like, I want some more advanced things. And I'm like, I have advanced training—totally fine. But this is for authors like you, Rhonda, or those authors who have that fear and apprehension around dictation and what's going to be expected of me in the bootcamp.

Like, am I going to be dictating a novel by the end? No. And that is what we do with the bootcamp. So it's a total of four days. It's three days of training. So we do have a pre-party to kick off. We just get into Zoom and we go through the training; I answer questions. And we just start off with the very basics.

So day one is just about getting your tech set up. And it's not all of these different tools and apps and all. It is just using your computer or your smartphone. And I take you—I do a screen share and I take you through step by step: tap here, tap here, tap here—and start dictating.

And authors—you also have access, if you're on Facebook, you have access to the Facebook community. So if you're having a specific issue trying to work through, you know, your Android—generation whatever number, you know. It's like, I've got an older Android phone, or I've got, you know, this going on with my PC when I do Microsoft Word, or, you know, I'm on MacBook—I have a MacBook Pro (2013)—like, here's what I'm dealing with. And that's the great thing about the bootcamp—there's always someone in there, it seems like, who's like, oh yeah, that's the exact device I have. Here's the hack to get through that.

So that's something that's really great about the bootcamp because I have my devices, and I have, you know, all of the experience with different devices now through the bootcamp, but there's always someone in there, like, it just has that specific knowledge.

So we work through tech challenges and all. And then day two is just getting started with a very, very simple exercise—no expectations on your brain to create. In fact, on day three, we do create your first scene of fiction. So we get into that—but just very first steps. And I just give you a very simple formula to follow to get your brain started with dictating your fiction.

So by the end, that is the goal—that you're able to take those first little steps into dictating fiction. The main thing is just getting past the overwhelm with the tech and supporting each other through those exercises to lead you into starting to dictate your fiction. So we set the bar low so that everyone can go over that bar in taking their first steps in dictating.

Rhonda:
I mean, setting the bar low is perfect for me because, as I say, I do feel like—I don't even know—yeah, I don't even know what I would need to do in order to do this. I'm going to be with you. Um—

Wow. Okay. So I'm going to put the link to join the bootcamp in the show notes. So if you're interested, you can grab it there. If you're part of my email community, you'll get it when I send you the link to this episode, and, um, you know, join me.

I feel like even if I go through this bootcamp and I decide, oh, it's not for me, at least I've tried it, you know? Like, at least I've learned what is actually involved. Because right now I only have—like, I'm only imagining what it's like. So at least I'll know what it really takes and how I could do it if I wanted to do it.

So join me in the bootcamp, and, uh, Sarah will guide us through and get us, ah, to the place where we can finally start using dictation. So thanks so much for being here, Sarah. I really appreciate it.

Sarah:
I appreciate it, Rhonda. And I'm so looking forward to seeing you in there—and everyone, if you're not in Rhonda's email community, be sure that you're in there. That sounds like—I mean, I know she's always releasing so many great resources, so I'm looking forward to having her, and hopefully you, in the bootcamp. I’m really excited.

Rhonda:
Great. Thanks so much.

Outro:

Thanks so much for hanging out with me today and for listening all the way to the end. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of The Resilient Writers Radio Show. While you're here, I would really appreciate it if you'd consider leaving a rating and review of the show. You can do that in whatever app you're using to listen to the show right now, and it just takes a few minutes. 

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