How to Finish a Book...Even When Life Gets Hard
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Show Notes
Well, hey there, Writer. Welcome to the Resilient Writers Radio Show. I'm your host, Rhonda Douglas, and this is the podcast for writers who want to create and sustain a writing life they love. Because, let's face it, the writing life has its ups and downs, and we want to not just write, but also to be able to enjoy the process so that we'll spend more time with our butt-in-chair getting those words on the page.
This podcast is for writers who love books and everything that goes into the making of them. For writers who want to learn and grow in their craft and improve their writing skills. Writers who want to finish their books and get them out into the world so their ideal readers can enjoy them.
Writers who want to spend more time in that flow state. Writers who want to connect with other writers to celebrate and be in community in this crazy roller coaster ride we call the writing life. We are resilient writers. We're writing for the rest of our lives and we're having a good time doing it.
So welcome, Writer. I'm so glad you're here. Let's jump right into today's show.
Well, hello there, Writer. Welcome back to another episode of the Resilient Writers Radio Show. I'm so excited today because Elizabeth Chatsworth and I have managed to get our mutual acts together to get on and talk to each other. I've been trying to do this for a while, and I'm so excited to talk to her. She's got a new book coming out. Very excited.
So let me just introduce you to Elizabeth, so you know a little bit about her. Originally from Sheffield in Yorkshire, England, Elizabeth now lives in the US where she also works as a voice actor. She writes science fiction and fantasy that celebrates rogues, rebels, and renegades across time and space.
From Victorian sensibilities to interstellar travel, she sends you on cosmic adventures filled with quirky characters and a touch of humor. Her debut novel, The Brass Queen, came out in 2021 and has won numerous awards, including the IBPA Benjamin Franklin Award gold for science fiction and fantasy. And, she has won the Writers of the Future contest for her short story, The Widow's Might.
I'm holding, you can't see it, but I'm holding The Brass Queen. But I know for a fact that the sequel to The Brass Queen is coming out in April. Is it the 23rd? Yes. Okay. So not too long now. That's so exciting. Yay. No pressure. No pressure. Yeah, exactly.
And just so you know, I have Darcy, my Cocker Spaniel, sleeping at my feet. And Elizabeth has Boudica, or Boo, her Yorkshire Terrier, on her lap. Hi, Boo. And so if you hear a little yap, that's what's going on. So cute.
Elizabeth, tell me how the Brass Queen, the first novel with Constance Hartwhistle came to be. Like where did it come from? How did you end up writing that novel?
Elizabeth: Oh, sure. Well, you know, originally I was fast approaching my 50th birthday and I was walking with my husband through the woods. And we were talking about, I was talking basically about a bucket list, things I hadn't got around to. And I was talking about my love of books and I wish I'd actually tried to write something at some point, not have done anything since I was about five years old.
And he said, well, why don't you get on with it then? I said, oh, isn't it too late? But no, go ahead. How long can it be? And With that in mind, I I decided to start reading books about writing and I joined an online course run by David Farland, who is a New York Times bestselling fantasy and science fiction writer.
Yes. The very first exercise in class was to describe a world and characters within it doing something, you know, it's very generic and I happen to be interested in steampunk, which is a Victorian aesthetic in literature that can be applied to science fiction, fantasy, detective novels, whatever.
It takes us to that aesthetic of Victorian times and overlays it with perhaps more modern ideas and technology. And my husband and I used to go to conventions and dress up and we had these alter egos.
Rhonda: Oh, I love it. Oh, so good.
Elizabeth: I was Lady Annabelle of Hogwassall, and Oh, well, that sounds familiar, a little familiar. And I was this aristocrat who would, you know, pop off to Mars and do explorations and all this nonsense, and just had this sort of fun character. My husband played my dashing sidekick, an American cowboy who's also time traveled. So we had this sort of fun thing every month. I know. Okay.
Rhonda: I have to ask you, have you ever been to the steampunk cafe in Cape Town called Truth?
Elizabeth: No, I haven't.
Rhonda: It's so amazing. Yeah. No, it's so I, as, as I was reading the Brass Queen and of course I got to read the Grand Tour as well. The, you know, like the aesthetic in my mind, I feel like I've been living inside that coffee shop. So. It's amazing. If you ever get there, you've got to do it.
Elizabeth: It's a fun world. It's the best bits of Victorian times. I mean, if you think about the energy of the time, and the excitement about the future and progress, obviously there's a lot of dark, there's a dark side to Victorian times as well, but some of the more fun elements, you know, the enthusiasm for what people could achieve, you know, for science, like they were obsessed with science.
Rhonda:You could go to, you know, a Royal Institute lecture and just hang out and here's somebody's latest science discovery. So fun.
Elizabeth: Exactly. And ideas. It's a time of excitement as well. Just a lot going on at that time, much like today. Here I am, we have this first writing assignment. And of course, I thought, well, I'll just create this character, Holt Whistle, who's in my family of my fictional characters who I had fun with at these conventions.
And so, I imagined the Constance Holt whistle sitting in disarray beneath a broken time machine. And I just had this image of her, and then she says, this ruins everywhere, and, you know, this big dome's on fire, and it's like, oh, yeah, that's my girl.
Rhonda: She is the center of the chaos of this universe.
Elizabeth: Thank you. So I wrote this scene where she's at her, her debutante hall, she's sewing for herself, and everything goes horribly wrong, and this handsome cowboy happens to sweep in, and, and just daring do, and inventions, and, and party banter, and the whole thing. And I sent this off to David, expecting to be, you know, to get the critique that every beginner writer has.
It's just like, wow, this is terrible, but here's where you're going wrong, and here's what to do now. Right, here's how you could fix it, yeah. Exactly. And he overlooked all the many, many problems with it and just said, I love this world. I love these characters. If you write, actually wrote a novel based on this, I would edit it for you. I just, you know, I need to know more.
And I'm just blown away by that feedback. So you don't expect that of such a great writer and certainly not in your first attempt. So then, the gauntlet was thrown down to write a novel, and bear in mind I just entered this to write, entered this class to write something, not to suddenly start a career as a novelist, but that's what started the spark.
So, over the next year I wrote this novel, not having any background in writing at all, and David did kindly edit it, and showed me the votes of, hey, you know, that's insane, don't do that, but oh, okay, that's fine. And then 430 pages later, you know, it was, it was a monster. I mean, The Brass Queen, I'm watching a series now, but actually I had all these things in my head for about eight books worth of stuff.
I was trying to fit it into this one book. Yeah. It just stops where it did not on a cliffhanger. I will say, cause it's like, it's driving me mad, but it stops where it did because I was already at 112,000 words. And, you know, publishing has limits for that kind of thing.
Rhonda: It does have limits, yes it does. But you know what, your experience is so common, like I think often, especially fantasy people are writing along, writing along, and they're at 100, 000 words, 115, 000 words, 120, 000 words before they go: “Oh, I think I have several books in here!”
Elizabeth: That is not a bad position to be in. No, not at all. Have to learn these magical skills called editing. Apparently you cannot put everything in the book, which is a shock to me. Right.
Rhonda: So what was your experience when the book came out? You wrote this thing, you, you kind of, you're walking in the woods with your husband David. You're like, you know, I've always wanted to write something. And the next thing you know, you've got 430 pages of a novel and someone to help edit it and so on. Where did it go from there? So it came out with Kamkat Books.
Elizabeth: It did. Yeah.
Rhonda: And how did that come to be? What was your publishing journey?
Elizabeth: Oh, gosh. Well, that was a roller coaster in itself. There's another side of the education of being a writer. Initially my book I'd sent him the first chapter of my book to a romance writing contest. Because I thought they gave feedback on the first chapter but what I actually ended up doing was winning a spot in in this Golden Heart contest for romance, which was kind of a surprise to me, because although I had these main characters who bickered and there was certainly an energy, it wasn't really a romance.
Elizabeth: I think today they call it romantasy, there's a bit of romance, but I was way ahead of the game. But I won this contest and I'm like, wow, okay, let's, that, that's great that, that starts to get some feed, some some motion going for this book. And then, by another chance, I entered a contest called Pitch Wars, and I got into that as well.
But this time, they did more than knock my feedback, you actually got to work with two professional writers to whip your book into shape. And so, the idea was to send it off to agents. So, I was lucky enough to win a spot in that and worked with two wonderful writers. And at that point, agents sort of bid, it was pitch wars, I mean, they bid for your book and to, to get a request for the book, which in itself, just getting requests for a full manuscript, a partial manuscript, is very difficult to do.
Rhonda: And it usually takes forever. So the Pitch Wars contest must have really sped that up considerably.
Elizabeth: Yeah, I mean, I spent three months during the actual contest rewriting the book and putting more of an emphasis on the romance element. And then it was four months after Pitch Wars that I signed with my agents.
And I'm like, well, that's it. New York Times. Here we come, all the things now. Yeah, it was not like that at all. And instead you have to rewrite the book again, somebody else's opinions enter the mix. And here we go to what will sound and what won't. And I'm writing in a fairly, at that time, obscure genre. So I had to do a lot of explaining about what I was doing.
Rhonda: And what would you consider your genre? I mean, I know it's, it's adult fantasy, steampunk, Victorian, but like, is that a genre?
Elizabeth: Yeah, it is. And it's also gaslight fantasy. Okay. It's not a romantic fantasy. It's a comedic fantasy. And mix things up. It's also science fiction with science. It's like literally cross genre. And it's got this romance element and the humor element. So that was one of the problems we faced when we talked to agents and they're like, wow, this is great. I love it. But I don't think I could sell it because I don't really know what it is.
Rhonda: It won't fit into a tiny box. Where does it go on the bookshelf in the bookstore?
Elizabeth: Right. Yeah, exactly. And so I sat with an agent and she was terrific. But then midway through pitching my books, she decided to change industries and just drop out of the industry completely. So then I was Oh no!
Rhonda: And then she left the business?
Elizabeth: Left the business. So her agency dropped me and I'm like, well, this is fun, what do I do now? And by chance, one of the editors that I'd already submitted the book to, their publishing company got bought out. So they went looking to join the new companies, and there was a new start up publishing company called Kamkat.
And I was actually the first person who they offered a contract to. So I was taking a big chance on them and they were taking a big chance on me. And as luck would have it, it just ended up being the perfect match. They helped develop the book. I got a great editor, Cassandra Farran, who worked on it even better. A thousand steps beyond what I worked on with David, where the story's kind of the same, but now I know how to tell it a lot better.
Rhonda: Right, so you did rewrites, like you were accepted by the agent, you did some rewrites then, and then you were accepted by the publisher and you did more rewrites.
Elizabeth: More rewrites. It's non stop rewrites. I mean, I thought that first draft that I, that I did with David, I thought that was the book. That was, that was version one, and there must have been like 20 plus versions, which I didn't know. Now, if I'd known that going in, would I have written the book? I don't know.
Rhonda: They do beautiful books. I mean, I'm, I've got it in hardcover and it's just, you know, it's really gorgeous. Like it's got like steampunk gears and it's got, you know, Constance is a, she's an arms dealer. And so it's got some arms and a whole coat of arms on the front. And, you know, it's really great. And every chapter has a little something, like the little cowboy hats at the top of the chapters or her hat is so great. I love it. It's so good. So they did a really nice job. Were you happy with it?
Elizabeth: I was, I had so much input on the cover. I worked with the designer. The artist was James Adam Sewing, did the actual, the the blunder bus. The fantastical blunder buses and, and the images on the rubber and the hats inside. So you knew whose point of view the chapter was from. And he did an outstanding job. And I gotta tip my tiny hat to KamKat that they let me go with this 'cause I just had this idea. It's a fantastical book.
Elizabeth: It should have a fantasy map like Tolkien and everything else from childhood fantasy books I wanted in this book, but I thought there'd only be one. I'm like, there's no way anybody's going to let me get on this roller coaster again. This is it. I'm pretty sure.
Rhonda: Also, it's kind of rare to have that kind of input on a cover in traditional publishing. Normally, you get sent your cover, they ask you for your thoughts, and they're like, well, thanks very much for that, and here's your cover.
Elizabeth: I mean, I think they were wonderful. I think it's partly because they were new, and partly they were good. Built into ideas. And let's face it, I'm a, I'm an actor. I'm a voice actor. So I'm a prima donna. So I'm going to be like, but I want it this way, darling. And they actually, you know, took that input. They could have told me just to go away and, you know, write in the box somewhere and leave us alone. But they were, they were very kind and let me have that input. I know that might not always be the case, but so far I've had the same experience as the second book too.
Elizabeth: James did the cover again, and we use a lot of the same elements and the fantastical airship on the on the cover and I just love it.
Rhonda: Nice.
Elizabeth: I imagined years ago what my series of books would look like. This was it. So it's like, right there.
Rhonda: That's amazing. I'm so, so happy for you. Wow. So, and Boudica is in the book. You put your dog in the book.
Elizabeth: Yes. Actually she's a case of art imitating life or vice versa. Because I didn't have a dog when I started writing The Brass Queen. And during the process of getting it published, because it took like five years for this actually to come out, from day one of starting to write it my husband and I decided to get a dog.
And of course, it had to be a Yorkshire Terrier called Boudicca of Haltwhistle Hall, short for Boo, and so Boo is named after Constance's dog, and in this, in, she played the part in both books, but in the second book especially, she's really part of the action, and Too many spoilers, but maybe involved in a, in a, in a death or kidnapping plot and just, just all sorts of things going on.
Rhonda: So fun. I think readers, I mean, obviously, you know, you can never kill off a dog. Sorry. Right. I mean, readers love pets and books. Like you have all these cozy mysteries with cats in bookstores and. I think readers really like a pet in a book. It's fun. It's fun.
Elizabeth: Absolutely. I mean, you can, you may root for the villains. You may root for the heroes, but everybody's got to root for a cool puppy. I mean.
Rhonda: So true. Everybody roots for the puppy. Absolutely. So Elizabeth, you and I met Brass Queen was out. It came out in 2021. And then you and I met, you joined First Book Finish and you were working on The Grand Tour. And it was, when was it?
Elizabeth: It was due last December. No, was it December 2022 or December 20? Yeah, it was December 2022. It was due. Yes, that's right. Just over a year ago. I had a deadline for the first time in my life. I mean, I put it along with everything until then with no real deadline, even the editing and so on.
Rhonda: But you had a contract with the publisher and they're like, we want it on this day.
Elizabeth: Exactly. They wanted it on a specific day. It was just before Christmas. And a year before that, I thought, well, how hard can it be? Okay, that's the second time you've said that. I don't know. But I, you know, I've done this once. It can't be that difficult. And it actually turned out to be far more difficult.
And I was writing it during the pandemic. Right. At the same time I'm supposed to be recording the audio book for The Brass Queen, I couldn't get the studio and editing and all that figured out, so I had to, had to let that part of it go, which was heartbreaking for me as a voice artist, I really wanted to do that.
Rhonda: Are you going to do your own audio, you're going to do your own voice work?
Elizabeth: We started it, but it just wasn't working out, so it had to be given over to another – I'll never say never, it might happen. I haven't worked on these two, but you never know in the future, but both labels do great jobs and I'm sure they do much better accents than I do. My American is appalling. So I'm sure it's the best in the end. But so I started working on The Grand Tour and just one thing came up after another. Basically, my personal life has been pretty much a disaster for the three years that the Grand Tour has been in the making. It's been, it's just, a lot of things went wrong.
Some things went right. The things that went right were, because of the pandemic, we decided to move out of the city and move to the country. So we moved from Connecticut to New Hampshire. So we had all the fun of selling a house and buying a house. We spent two years renovating it, so we had builders in here every day, and it's been, that's been a whole lot of trauma.
But then I had a whole bunch of medical issues and at one point, the doctor was telling me, well forget about writing the book, you might want to start writing the will. And I'm like, well, that's not good. It's pretty scary, but I had some, long story short, I had you know, had to face some heart issues, and surgeries, and all this sort of thing.
And I've got to say, it's not easy to write a humorous, fun rom com in an alternate universe when you've got things like that hanging over you. Yeah. Everything felt difficult. And that's when I realized how alone I felt. Rightly or wrongly, I had the publisher behind me, I had editors. My family was very supportive.
I had everything. Everybody was rooting for me. But I, myself, was having a hard time getting pen to paper and getting this done. So, that's when I started. So First Book Finish, your course on how to overcome barriers to writing and to being creative and to actually.
Rhonda: Even though you'd already finished your first book, you had your first book well behind you.
Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I just needed someone there just to hold my hand and say okay, this, this, you can do this, you know, it's just going on, but you've got this in you, you know, don't be distracted, head down, just carry on with it. And so I joined, and I didn't know if it would work, so I was taking a chance, but it worked beautifully.
I actually made that deadline, despite everything going on, and I was blown away that I could do it, and thank goodness I did take that course, because after I'd signed in that first draft, things really went crazy in my life. My mom had a stroke in England. I had to go over there and I was looking after her until she passed away.
All this was happening while I was editing this book, so it's like more stress. And if I hadn't learned those skills of how to write and, and create and edit under pressure that I learned in your course, I wouldn't have gotten the editing done on time either. And the publisher was kind enough, they extended my original deadline by three weeks.
And three weeks is a lot, but it's also not very much but I managed to get it in. And thank heavens they were very understanding about it. And then dealing with all the estate issues and everything else, and then finally getting over the health issues, it's like, goodness, this, I thought the first book was hard.
And then the second book, just producing this fun book within all this going on, it's really been a battle.
Rhonda: So not so much the book as it is everything else, right? Life blows up. And did you ever have this sense of like working on the book as a little bit of. Almost like sanctuary time away from the chaos.
Elizabeth: I think it, there was a certain element of that that could close the door and say, look, I'm working on the book now. I mean, okay, the builders like, okay, I know you're banging away there, but you know. Catch me at lunchtime if you want an opinion, so I'm just going to do this thing. I'll just get my headphones and get on with it.
But it was uneasy, and I think there are a lot of techniques that you can use to keep yourself motivated. Because it's just so easy to say, you know what? I just want to go and eat bonbons and drink cocoa in the corner and put a blanket over my head today. Yeah. But and people were relying on me, and I, I had to get it done, but I had to get it done for myself too, because I don't, despite everything that was going on, I don't wanna be, this could be the period of my life, I look back and say, man, I dropped the ball, I missed my shot, as they might say in Hamilton. I let it go and, and I lost that momentum. So for myself, I had to keep going.
Hmm. So seeing this book here right now, as beautiful as it is with the cover and the map and, and the, you know, the fun words inside, I just, I can't believe I did it. And I'm so thrilled that it actually made it out into the world.
Rhonda: It's amazing. So you've received your author copies, right? I think I saw an Instagram unboxing video.
Elizabeth: Yeah, I just received 10 copies in a box and did a live unboxing with Boo and it's beautiful. I can't believe how lovely it is.
Rhonda: It's a really good looking book. I love it. And, I want it in hardcover too. Like it's one of those that you want in hardcover for sure. So that's 23rd of April. And are you already at work on book number three?
Elizabeth: Yes, I've got an outline. This is to do with – every book in the series deals with the science fiction concept from Victorian times. So the first book is a riff on H.G. Wells, The Invisible Man. The second book is The War of the Worlds. And the third book is about time machines.
Rhonda: Ah, so that original vision of Constance and the time machine comes into play now. That's great.
Elizabeth: Yeah, it's so wild. I mean, my tagline for the second book is the grass is always greener in another dimension and we start exploring the other dimensions where there are other conferences and other Truesdales or with their own personality traits. I can't wait to write it so I can read it because I'm really looking forward to it.
Rhonda: I know that feeling. That's such a fun feeling. So you're an outliner. You outline before you write. How does that work? Do you ever find that you outline and then you write and it changes? And if it does, if that happens and if it does, what do you do then?
Elizabeth: Yeah. I just go with the flow, but I do, I am a plotter. I have my plot lined up. I did the initial plot outline for The Brass Queen in Excel, believe it or not. Not quite that bad now. Now I'm actually using Word. I had, but I had to.
Rhonda: Oh, I love Excel. Why not? Yeah.
Elizabeth: I have about 12. 12 pages of the outline for Grand Tour and now I've got the same for the third book, which is, which is jokingly called Westward Ho, because I'm going to America at one point, but I think I might change that. But yeah, so it's a 12 page word document at the moment and I'll probably start putting it into Scrivener so that I can move things around.
Rhonda: Okay, so you work in Scrivener as well.
Elizabeth: Yes, and I do have to plot it because there are so many characters, it's a huge ensemble cast, and I'm dealing with other dimensions and villains and so on as well, so I have to keep all my work in order. And it's a good tip for when you've written a long book, this is over a hundred thousand words again. For each book will be to keep a list of your characters and their actual attributes, like what color their eyes are, what their age is, and, and even more detailed information in Excel, which is handy for, so you can refer back to it so you don't suddenly change their eyes from green to blue by, by book three. Yes. It's in the series, that kind of. Yeah. Well, getting the details right so that you're not caught out by a copy editor three years later going, Hey, isn't that character dead?
Rhonda: Oh, yeah. So that's, do you think of that as like your story Bible? I mean, honestly, in fantasy, people often have kind of, you know, a separate document that's like the world building document or the story Bible. Do you keep something like that?
Elizabeth: I do. Yes. Because I have a shockingly bad memory. So if I didn't do that, I wouldn't remember. So it's, it's very important for me to do that.
Rhonda: So Elizabeth, I know it was a while ago now and maybe you can't even remember, but what was the biggest thing about being in First Book Finish as you finished Grand Tour? Like what was the, I guess the most helpful thing there? Why did you do it in the first place and what did you get out of it?
Elizabeth: There were so many great things that came out of it I think desperation is initially what drove me to it, because I needed help, but I, I couldn't really say to my publisher, oh, hey, will you hold my hand through this, or, or, or, anyone else, no one else understands except other writers. Having a place to go to speak with other writers where no one is critiquing your work or anything or, you know, there's no, none of that pressure where it might be in competition or it might be being critiqued or any of it, it's just, it's supportive, like, we're all here because we need help getting this done.
So how can we help each other through this? It was great and, and there were, at specific times classes and podcasts and so on to attend and keep the momentum going having the write-ins so that you could actually show up at a point in time and see other people also working on their work.
All those things helped you to feel that you were part of a wider community. Even though we were writing completely different things. We were there for each other during doing something that perhaps folks who don't like, don't really understand. Right. How stressful it can be to, to be on your own creating a universe in your head
Rhonda: Yeah. From nothing, right. Just right outta the air. Absolutely.
Elizabeth: Absolutely. And, and that I think was important, the tips given during the course. It seems that, perhaps, although it may be obvious to one person, you've never thought of it that way. It's just it's just, it opens your mind to different ways of viewing writing.
Even something like the element of play. So I've got myself twisted up into a, oh my god, I have a, a deadline and this is my job now and oh no, wait, where's the fun in this? Especially for me, because I'm writing this sort of rom com fun book. Like, you need to start getting that energy into here, you know, and, so I started taking different steps, such as doing some coloring in an adult coloring book.
Rhonda: That's not as rude as it sounds. It's actually just pictures for, you know, adults.
Elizabeth: Yeah, it always sounds a little strange. But anyway, I thought I'd start colouring and play certain music and get into that play mode for 10-15 minutes and then come to the writing with okay, my characters are playing here. What do they have to say? And imagining my characters are there in the room with me, pointing out what I'm, what I'm doing right or wrong.
And, ah, haven't you got on, got this done yet? And, you know, I need to have things to do. And, and imagining them as real people there, just, just appearing over my shoulder saying, but get on with the story with you. I mean, stop talking about him. Talk about me. And you go, that element of fun was, was, that's what I'd been missing.
And then that made the writing fun again. So that was a, that was a great introduction to, to how to manage my time, not just the efficiency, efficiency and productivity, but really enjoying the process.
Rhonda: Yeah, absolutely. You know, if we don't enjoy it, what's the point? Because we just lose so much control over the final product usually, right? Like you said, you had an agent, you thought all the roads were gonna open to you now, you know, New York Times bestseller list, here I come, and then it's, it's always a roller coaster. And yeah, absolutely. Wow. So this is amazing. I want to close off, Elizabeth. I mean, first of all, best of luck. I cannot wait until Grand Tour is out in the world. I am really looking forward to reading the final version of it. Okay. So definitely April 23rd, everyone keep your eyes out for that.
Rhonda: I wanted to close off, Elizabeth, by asking you, as you know, this is the Resilient Writers Radio Show, and I wanted to ask you what it means to you this idea of being a resilient writer.
Elizabeth: To be a resilient writer means bouncing back from life's ups and downs. While making the choice to be creative, no matter what stands in your way. Your words, your art, are your gift to the world. You owe it to yourself and others to get those words on the page. And by doing so, you truly will become the hero of your own story. And what a story it will be.
Rhonda: Well, Elizabeth, it's been lovely talking to you. I'm so glad we could finally make this happen. And good luck with Grand Tour.
Elizabeth: Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.
Outro:
Thanks so much for hanging out with me today and for listening all the way to the end. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of the Resilient Writers Radio Show.
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